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Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

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Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#311

Post by [deleted] »

grannyg00se wrote: post #296
rayiner wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So my grandfather on my mom's side was a doctor and a lawyer. My mom's siblings include a couple of doctors, a military officer, a business executive, etc. My mom was herself a journalist, and of her sons I'm a lawyer and my brother is a banker. This is not a coincidence. Privilege is passed down from generation to generation, not just in money, but in social status, connections, values, culture, insight, motivation,…

So you paint this great picture about the history of an affluent white family with success built upon previous generations' success. But then you talk about a poor white person and compare him to a poor black person saying they're not in the same boat. What does this poor white person have to do with your successful white family? That whole story is not relevant to this person as an individual. We can see that on a h…

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Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#312

Post by rayiner »

grannyg00se wrote: post #296
rayiner wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So my grandfather on my mom's side was a doctor and a lawyer. My mom's siblings include a couple of doctors, a military officer, a business executive, etc. My mom was herself a journalist, and of her sons I'm a lawyer and my brother is a banker. This is not a coincidence. Privilege is passed down from generation to generation, not just in money, but in social status, connections, values, culture, insight, motivation,…

So you paint this great picture about the history of an affluent white family with success built upon previous generations' success. But then you talk about a poor white person and compare him to a poor black person saying they're not in the same boat. What does this poor white person have to do with your successful white family? That whole story is not relevant to this person as an individual. We can see that on a h…

> But then you talk about a poor white person and compare him to a poor black person saying they're not in the same boat. What does this poor white person have to do with your successful white family? That whole story is not relevant to this person as an individual.

My point is that, but for the actions of our society in the 1930's an 1940's, there would be many more black Americans who could tell the same story as me. But systematic denial of privilege is passed down from generation to generation just as privilege is passed down from generation to generation, and that denial is the inheritance of every black American who can trace his ancestry back to those times.

Your attempt to create equivalencies between poor blacks and poor whites misses one crucial fact: our government did not systematically oppress and deny opportunity to the ancestors of poor whites. If the government burns down my house, then my neighborhood suffers flooding because of a hurricane, I am not made whole by the government addressing the flood damage. I am not satisfied with the government's attempts to "forget the past" and treat my case as no more important than that of every other person affected by the flooding. That makes no sense.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#313

Post by iy56 »

eiwrwoeriu wrote: post #285
iy56 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people disagree with you about what the goal should be. You can't turn back time and undo abuse. Trying to do so is just a waste of resources. In the race metaphor, the solution would be to just make sure everyone starts on a even footing in the next heat. In real life, I would say that means making sure all children have equal access to healthcare and education, regardless of their parents' income or circumstan…

>>You can't turn back time and undo abuse Sure you can. The ancestors of those slaves are still suffering from that abuse. Your willful blindness is disgusting. The truth is that you are a racist. Only a racist would ignore all logic and pretend that the blacks of today are not a product of the slavery of yesterday. That the reason that they are poor and disadvantage compared to whites is because of the systematic op…

I didn't say that blacks today aren't affected by a history of racism, only that a race-based policy is not necessary to correct this.

If you define anyone who disagrees with you as a racist, I agree, the world will never be rid of racism.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#314

Post by rayiner »

ams6110 wrote: post #278
saraid216 wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know. Oh, come on. Think a little. Let's say your entire family was enslaved and made to work on a plantation for a few generations. How much money would you want for that? Why offer the alternative if you can't come up with a number?

Because there is no number. The premise is flawed. This is just such a nonproductive outlook to have. How far back do any of us have to go before we find our ancestors living in tyranny or serfdom or slavery. For many of us, not too many generations I bet. What does it have to do with our lives, today? If you go looking for a reason to be a victim, to find justifications for your problems, you'll never get past them.…

The "how for do we have to go back" false equivalency is utterly ridiculous. We're not talking about the oppression of the Britons by the Romans here. We're talking about systematic oppression and viscious discrimination that was committed by the still-existing state and federal governments within the lifetime of people still living. Rosa Parks died in 2005. George H. W. Bush, who is still alive and kicking, is about 5 years older than MLK would have been today. Many TV shows I watched on Nick-at-Nite growing up (Dyk Van Dyke, Get Smart) were contemporaneous with violent school desegregation. The young people that were the subject of the showdown at the University of Alabama between the National Guard and Governor Wallace were just 7 years older than my dad.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#315

Post by SilasX »

mikeash wrote: post #264
SilasX wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm tired of people misusing the concept of a strawman (or other equivalent concepts). Just because someone pointed out something weird or bad about an argument doesn't make it a strawman. The OP comment was not misrepresented. He started from "black people historically lived in greater proportion where soil was good for cotton." He ended with "affirmative action is still needed". Yes, the OP said more than that, but…

I don't know where you're getting any of this. My objection was to asking the question and then assuming that it could not be answered before even giving the other guy a chance to respond.

That wasn't what he said, and the comment itself was a response to such an attempt, but whatever.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#316

Post by Natsu »

flyinRyan wrote: post #308
Natsu wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Merely being born American made us winners in that lottery, if you get down to it. Is anyone really against the idea that all 49 million need help?

You mean being born a first world country. But there are other first world countries that have better average quality of life than the US.

There will always be some people who have it better than others. I would prefer that we make sure that those who have it the worst comparatively don't have it that bad on an absolute scale.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#317

Post by mikeash »

SilasX wrote: post #315
mikeash wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where you're getting any of this. My objection was to asking the question and then assuming that it could not be answered before even giving the other guy a chance to respond.

That wasn't what he said, and the comment itself was a response to such an attempt, but whatever.

That wasn't what he said? How do you figure? He asked a question of the other guy, then answered it rather abruptly in the next sentence.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#318

Post by johnrgrace »

jivatmanx wrote: post #83
shantanubala wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I agree with you, I get the impression that someone who doesn't think affirmative action should exist even after learning about the gang violence, intense poverty, substance abuse, neglect, and trauma that surrounds children growing up in housing projects and "bad neighborhoods" -- even after all of that, if someone still says no, then you could probably trace this back to the Big Bang and they'll still say…

Why can't we just try to remedy those ills directly? Why does there need to be an association with race? I'm not denying that these are a result of the U.S's past action, and that we have a responsibility to fix them, but I have doubts that associating them with race is necessary or helpful in any way.

We just had an election and almost 50% of the country said No we don't want "big goverment" which is what it takes to remedy those ills. If you want to solve the ills it's going to take years of hard work and a lot of money.

Also, a part of why we don't have the political will is latent racism.

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