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German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

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Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#171

Post by AndyMcConachie »

archerx wrote: post #158
webhamster wrote: post #155

German implementer here. We have to use some kind of attestation mechanism per the eIDAS implementing acts. That doesn't work without operating system support. The initial limitation to Google/Android is not great, we know that, and we have support for other OSs on our list (like, e.g., GrapheneOS). It is simply a matter of where we focus our energy at the moment, not that we don't see the issues.

What if I don’t have a smartphone?

You're screwed. This has been the way for a while now. You cannot exist in society without a smart phone and it's only going to get worse.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#172

Post by rcbdev »

sunshine-o wrote: post #138
atanasi wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current policy trend in the EU is definitely not based on the principle of each user evaluating their own risk. On the contrary, service providers like financial institutes and identity providers have the responsibility to keep users safe, and more and more regulation will be made. The natural consequence is restricting which platforms are supported.

> The current policy trend in the EU is definitely not based on the principle of each user evaluating their own risk. Yes and if you look back this is not new. Just look at the extraordinary restrictions that apply to: - What houses you can build, - What vehicle you can drive, - What food you can grow and sell. The result is real estate has become unaffordable for younger people, our car industry is being annihilated…

I really have to wonder where in the EU you live. In Vienna, I got to buy an apartment in my mid-twenties by just saving up, which was easy, as many apartments are rent-capped and there's lots of cheap social housing. I got to enjoy free university, allowing me to get a high paying job. I get to use very cheap all electric state-subsidized rental car offerings if I need them, which is rare since we have federally good rail and bus coverage. And I enjoy affordable meat, dairy and vegetables all sourced from inside my country.

Austria's courts also ruled ages ago that rooting your own device cannot be a legal reason for OEMs like Samsung to refuse warranty coverage, since you can run whatever software you want on hardware you bought.

Maybe your country sucks? Don't blame it on the EU.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#173

Post by jahnu »

bluecalm wrote: post #118
gmerc wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is distracted with its version of “the gun debate” aka speed limits. Like every school shooting, every energy crisis brings opportunity to saturate the airwaves with shallow noise that gets people overly upset and they’ll ignore everything else. Every player on both sides is abusing this mechanic for all eternity.

Imagine we had real democracy where people vote on issues. Speed limits? Vote once every 7 years or so on it and be done with it. Same for abortion laws, drug laws, gambling laws. Have a debate, vote, come back to it in 7 years if there is public interest. Preferably vote locally on issues that can be applied locally (like speed limits/enforcement etc.). Public debate and assessing politicians and parties would be so…

I would hate to live in that political system. Just imagining the ways it would be gamed and the billionaire press would leverage these votes makes me shudder.

So far the best modern improvement I’ve seen (and it could be further improved of course) is the increasing use of citizens assemblies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_assembly

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#174

Post by AnthonyMouse »

maccard wrote: post #157
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels like arguing that people wouldn't object to having a shock collar padlocked around their neck because it's not currently shocking them. You don't have to see very many moves ahead to guess what happens if you don't object. Whereas if the collar is touted as fashionable and the lock is hidden until it's engaged, now your problem is not that people don't care , it's that they don't know , which is different.

I don't think this analogy comes even close to holding water.

So cementing a dependency on paperclip-optimizing foreign megacorps to intermediate all your purchases and communications doesn't allow them to influence your behavior?

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#175

Post by anileated »

archerx wrote: post #158
webhamster wrote: post #155

German implementer here. We have to use some kind of attestation mechanism per the eIDAS implementing acts. That doesn't work without operating system support. The initial limitation to Google/Android is not great, we know that, and we have support for other OSs on our list (like, e.g., GrapheneOS). It is simply a matter of where we focus our energy at the moment, not that we don't see the issues.

What if I don’t have a smartphone?

No one is required to use EUDI: https://ec.europa.eu/digital-building-blocks/sites/spaces/EU...

Companies and providers (like banks) have to support it, but use is voluntary.

Check out the spec and legal framework, it actually makes sense and is open to different implementations, though you might need to certify it.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#176

Post by reconnecting »

webhamster wrote: post #155

German implementer here. We have to use some kind of attestation mechanism per the eIDAS implementing acts. That doesn't work without operating system support. The initial limitation to Google/Android is not great, we know that, and we have support for other OSs on our list (like, e.g., GrapheneOS). It is simply a matter of where we focus our energy at the moment, not that we don't see the issues.

Humiliating disregard for sovereignty.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#177

Post by kodebach »

ibbtown wrote: post #167
webhamster wrote: post #155

German implementer here. We have to use some kind of attestation mechanism per the eIDAS implementing acts. That doesn't work without operating system support. The initial limitation to Google/Android is not great, we know that, and we have support for other OSs on our list (like, e.g., GrapheneOS). It is simply a matter of where we focus our energy at the moment, not that we don't see the issues.

Why is a trusted device chain needed? It will put more trust in the potential Chinese device maker and American software companies than the user who's id is shown?

Simply because the law was written that way. But also the whole idea of identity verification becomes pretty useless, if there is no chain of trust. You could run a modified client that lets you assume any identity you choose, exactly the opposite of what eIDAS is trying to achieve.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#178

Post by HighGoldstein »

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #171
archerx wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if I don’t have a smartphone?

You're screwed. This has been the way for a while now. You cannot exist in society without a smart phone and it's only going to get worse.

Essential services (banks, government services, public transport) generally still support SMS as an alternative to their mobile apps when there's no completely offline process.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#179

Post by notpushkin »

brador wrote: post #170
webhamster wrote: post #155

German implementer here. We have to use some kind of attestation mechanism per the eIDAS implementing acts. That doesn't work without operating system support. The initial limitation to Google/Android is not great, we know that, and we have support for other OSs on our list (like, e.g., GrapheneOS). It is simply a matter of where we focus our energy at the moment, not that we don't see the issues.

Google has banned many accounts of genuine users. What is your fallback for such an important vital service?

To play the devil’s advocate here: MEETS_STRONG_INTEGRITY on Android doesn’t require a Google account AFAIK. But it might change, of course.

Edit: but as pointed out elsewhere in the thread, Play Integrity is not the only way to do hardware attestation on Android. GrapheneOS devs have a guide: https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-gu...

So avoiding proprietary Google stuff altogether is possible and we should encourage it.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#180

Post by ksjfjsmb »

webhamster wrote: post #155

German implementer here. We have to use some kind of attestation mechanism per the eIDAS implementing acts. That doesn't work without operating system support. The initial limitation to Google/Android is not great, we know that, and we have support for other OSs on our list (like, e.g., GrapheneOS). It is simply a matter of where we focus our energy at the moment, not that we don't see the issues.

Sich bei staatlichen Dienstleistungen auf Google oder Apple zu verlassen, kommt schon fast einem Verrat gleich. Trump hasst uns.
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