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The People's Bailout

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Re: The People's Bailout

#291

Post by bobwaycott »

greedo wrote: post #284
bobwaycott wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really think you need to get your biases in check. Pursuing one's dreams is exactly what the last couple generations have been raised to do. They didn't exit the womb feeling entitled. They were told since near birth they could be whatever they wanted to be. They were told they needed to go to college. They did exactly as they were told and wound up with little to show for it and an overwhelmingly difficult job mar…

I agree 100% with your reply, but I guess I've got a blind spot about my biases. In the case of my friend's daughter, she's aware of her options, realizes that she's not making any progress towards her dreams, but refuses to acknowledge the failed narrative. If she was thinking "WTF?" she'd be moving on and not dogwalking...

Again, biases. You might be thinking, "WTF?" and rapidly moving on. That doesn't extend to people generally. The stronger a narrative, the longer people tend to hit their face against the brick walls of failure, believing the part of the narrative that's been telling them if they work and try hard enough for long enough, their dreams will become reality.

I'm obviously just commentating from the outside, but are you sure she is aware of her options in the same way you feel you are? What exactly are the options of someone who is trying to pursue her dreams? Do you step in and crush them, telling her it's time to give up and get practical? She'll be bombarded with anecdotes from the narrative that tell her to never give up. It's all-consuming. That's what cultural narratives do.

The narrative tells people to become self-actualized. The economic realities of a capitalist marketplace don't really have much room for that. The narrative has placed her in the disheartening place of having followed it and wound up unable to realize her dreams. That can be a very difficult place to move on from.

Re: The People's Bailout

#292

Post by lifeguard »

rprasad wrote: post #259
saraid216 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But gifts are capped at $12,000 per year, which puts something of a damper on the whole point of this, unless they've figured out a legal way to farm out who gets credit. So either they've promised not to go after these cases, or ... something else?

It is my understanding that this is how it works: OWS volunteers will buy the loan (not OWS itself, I use OWS in the collective sense). They will then collectively forgive the loan. Since each loan is held and forgiven by a group of people, no one individual is likely to come close to the yearly gift cap. Individuals can participate in the OWS loan purchases until they run into the wall (i.e., their ability to partic…

Epic diffusion of economic power (and risk)!

Re: The People's Bailout

#293

Post by lifeguard »

Millennium wrote: post #194
logn wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert in credit scores, but... If the original creditor already filed with the credit bureaus, that's definitely a negative on your credit. But I think the OWS can report that you "repaid" the debt which would be good. They could also bargain with the creditor to remove the negative report. Also, just reducing your balance of debt is good for credit. Plus, I don't think there's anything worse you can do for y…

IIRC, if your debt is being sold to a broker at pennies on the dollar -which is pretty much the only way OWS can get its hands on it- the bank has already long since given up on getting you to pay, and the credit bureaus have long since been informed. In other words, the damage to your credit is mostly already done; an actual bankruptcy would hurt worse, but you're still in for a world of pain.

Wrong!

A BK is a unique event from other delinquent accounts on one's credit report that carries extra weight. As do foreclosure and repo.

Re: The People's Bailout

#294

Post by lifeguard »

mkr-hn wrote: post #240
eru wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. I never lived in the US. I came to Britain (from Germany) with neither car nor credit history. They let me rent a place, and I never had to buy a car. (Oh, and didn't have to worry about health insurance, either. But that's a slightly different topic.) I wonder how my move to Singapore will play out. But should I ever come to the US, I'll make sure I have plenty of money.

I've heard the US a great country to live in if you have plenty of money. It's so-so if you don't.

If you know how to hustle in the vernacular sense you can come to the USA penniless and retire wealthy.

The USA is a great place if you want/need the rule of law to protect property.

Overall, the US civil legal system is not corrupt. In many places in Asia and E. Europe corruption is systemic. It is much more difficult to keep a successful business in such an environment.

One example is real estate escrow services with title insurance.

Re: The People's Bailout

#295

Post by tsotha »

btilly wrote: post #286
tsotha wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You're making the exact same logic error, but this time talking about majorities, so in addition to failing at logic you're failing at statistics. One of us is being stupid, but I don't think it's me. The assertion is college is necessary for a middle class lifestyle. What I'm saying is 1) it's not and 2) when you add up lost opportunity costs, direct costs, and interest on student debt many people (maybe even most)…

One of us is being stupid, but I don't think it's me. You also have proven unable to parse English. The assertion is college is necessary for a middle class lifestyle. Your continued inability to parse English is getting old. Here, for the record, is the original assertion. Not when the majority of jobs that create a vibrant middle class in the post-industrial United States require at least a college degree. Now why…

I give up. Instead of reading what I write you keep building straw men out of cherry picked sentences and then slap them down. It must be easier to "win" an argument that way, but you're just wasting my time and that of everyone else who reads what you write.

Re: The People's Bailout

#296

Post by mkr-hn »

lifeguard wrote: post #294
mkr-hn wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard the US a great country to live in if you have plenty of money. It's so-so if you don't.

If you know how to hustle in the vernacular sense you can come to the USA penniless and retire wealthy. The USA is a great place if you want/need the rule of law to protect property. Overall, the US civil legal system is not corrupt. In many places in Asia and E. Europe corruption is systemic. It is much more difficult to keep a successful business in such an environment. One example is real estate escrow services wi…

Are you living in a different US? I'm not saying the path to wealth is beyond my horizon, but there's a lot in the way that only exists because previous generations managed things poorly. Someone starting a little further behind would have an exponentially harder time.

Re: The People's Bailout

#297

Post by greedo »

elemenohpee wrote: post #275
greedo wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this raise social capital? It's not helping the original debtor, and in fact, is increasing the demand for non-performing debt? Collection agencies will LOVE this program, since they can now actually make some money off of non-performing debt. If anything, this will result in collection agencies increasing their harassment of delinquent accounts.

Because it's a signal to all these debtors that there's a significant segment of the population that doesn't want to play by the old rules. It shows that they can count on their fellow citizens to help them out when they are down on their luck, the very definition of social capital.

Okay, say I'm in debt to BigHospital for my cancer treatments. I only owe $10K (ha!) and discharging this debt in bankruptcy is something I either couldn't afford or otherwise was unable to accomplish.

I've managed to avoid paying the debt collectors for whatever reason, and I have this low value debt out there. It's par value might be $10k, but it's sold to Rolling Jubilee for $500. Rolling Jubilee discharges this debt.

In practical terms, my credit is already shot. I wasn't able to pay off this debt anyways, so it's not as if I have more money in my pocket. Sure I might be able to rebuild my credit a bit faster depending on how Rolling Jubilee reports the handling of this debt etc etc. Maybe not. Even if it persists on my credit score, rebuilding credit isn't as hard once you get a decent steady job. If I don't have that, I have no business getting more credit, no?

The old rules that you say no one wants to play by are still there at the end of the day.

Oh, and "hey can count on their fellow citizens to help them out when they are down on their luck" doesn't seem to be the very definition of social capital from your link.

Re: The People's Bailout

#298

Post by greedo »

hnal943 wrote: post #245
potatolicious wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... universal health care then :P An organization that receives all your medical bills, keeps you out of debt/bankruptcy, and charges you an amount that it determines would not cause undue hardship? Like insurance, except everyone qualifies! Slight side note: this whole discussion is somewhat depressing, but I've come to expect this from HN lately. This whole thread is divided into two rough parts: people addressin…

The difference is that in universal health care, the government puts a gun to your head and forces you to "help."

All government action is backed up by the threat of coercion. Singling out health care is disingenuous. The anti-war crowd doesn't like seeing their taxes go to fighting in Iraq and elsewhere, but they too have a gun put to their heads.

Re: The People's Bailout

#299

Post by greedo »

bobwaycott wrote: post #291
greedo wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree 100% with your reply, but I guess I've got a blind spot about my biases. In the case of my friend's daughter, she's aware of her options, realizes that she's not making any progress towards her dreams, but refuses to acknowledge the failed narrative. If she was thinking "WTF?" she'd be moving on and not dogwalking...

Again, biases. You might be thinking, "WTF?" and rapidly moving on. That doesn't extend to people generally. The stronger a narrative, the longer people tend to hit their face against the brick walls of failure, believing the part of the narrative that's been telling them if they work and try hard enough for long enough, their dreams will become reality. I'm obviously just commentating from the outside, but are you s…

Agreed. I do have far more experience with moving on. I've pursued two different "dream" careers, and am now in a third that seems to be the best fit for me.

She seems disheartened by her lack of success in the last five years, but I know from personal experience that it's hard to change direction without a huge outside catalyst.

I don't think it's necessarily wrong to encourage people to follow their dreams, but I think that society in general and parents specifically should do a better job of raising kids with the ability to critically evaluate themselves. Parents are often blind to the flaws of their children (at least I am), and the business world loves to encourage the idea of following your dreams. Expecting teenagers to have this self-awareness isn't realistic though; some do, but the majority need to skin their knees a bit. Parents need to help with this.

It's a tough nut to crack; we glamorize sports and celebrity when the chances of succeeding in those arenas are miniscule. We celebrate working with our minds and denigrate those who work with their hands.

Re: The People's Bailout

#300

Post by potatolicious »

philwelch wrote: post #251
potatolicious wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps not home ownership - but in many (most?) parts of this country a reliable vehicle is an absolute requirement for holding down a job. A bankrupt person, if anything, is in greatest need of a trustworthy car, and is also the most likely to require a loan to do so. There's also the notion of rent - people who've always had good credit don't really know how different renting is like for people who have bad credit…

Used cars are widely available for relatively low prices.

Low to a fiscally solvent person. Even a couple thousand dollars is loan-worthy amounts to someone fresh out of a bankruptcy. Pawn shops and payday loan shops, after all, are a testament to the poor's need for small loans.
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