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The most-disliked people in the publishing industry

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Re: The most-disliked people in the publishing industry

#41

Post by djoldman »

tptacek wrote: post #38
djoldman wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh for sure. Many people are surprised to learn how much more public teachers make than private teachers :) A ton of details that medians aren't showing. I was just mentioning why folks may be on different sides here. We should at least be talking about the same thing. If it's a "they deserve" conversation, that's very different than others.

I think people can reasonably go back and forth about whether they should be more compensated, but I don't think there's a reasonable conversation to have about teaching not being a well-compensated career path. I know this surprises a lot of people. (My mom is a retired CPS teacher.)

I assume the CTU came up a lot at the dinner table, haha.

Shrug clearly teachers are paid more than the median wage. There isn't much to argue there.

Modeling wage/salary is pretty straightforward for the majority of jobs (weighted by number of people working the job). There really aren't too many surprises.

Monopoly/Oligopoly union power, licensing, labor supply, regulatory/compliance restrictions/barriers, and product/service output value are pretty much most of it?

Re: The most-disliked people in the publishing industry

#42

Post by hoppyhoppy2 »

tptacek wrote: post #35
djoldman wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Folks may talk past each other on this. Some people may say that nurses and teachers ARE NOT well-paid because those workers deserve to be paid more than they are. Some people may say that nurses and teachers ARE well-paid because they are generally paid more than median wage. As for some dry facts, median wages: Registered Nurse $93,600 Public School Teacher $64,000 Private School Teacher $57,600 All U.S. Occupation…

Complexifiers for teaching: K12 cash comp in major population centers (CPS, SFUSD, Philly, MSP, &c) is sharply higher than that median, and, more importantly, teachers get a huge amount of non-cash comp. Can't say enough how valuable a defined-benefit pension is. All-in comp for a lot of rank-and-file K12 teachers in major metros is competitive with software development (in those regions; obviously excluding SFUSD).

Many teachers need a masters degree, which is much less true of the average worker.

Re: The most-disliked people in the publishing industry

#43

Post by chromacity »

x3n0ph3n3 wrote: post #39
chromacity wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It probably has to do with the fact that we condition children and adolescents to consider white-collar jobs as more noble than blue-collar jobs, then we tell them that to get a good white-collar job, they need a degree... and then we make STEM degrees hard by subjecting students to more math than most people realistically need. So we have a lot of frontend developers who know calculus and an oversupply of people wit…

It's a shame that calculus isn't required by every college degree. Just because I'm not integrating functions during my normal work, doesn't mean I don't benefit from understanding the fundamental principles.

Yes, totally. I was about to undero surgery but found out the doctor didn't even know about Laplace transforms. He small-mindedly spent his formative years learning anatomy, never benefitting from the knowledge of frequency-domain derivatives. I dodged that bullet by storming out.

Re: The most-disliked people in the publishing industry

#44

Post by com2kid »

chromacity wrote: post #32
dxdm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does the supply come from? You could still argue that people choose this as a career when they have the choice of better-paid ones, increasing the supply of people with the smarts and training needed by the publishers. I don't know if that's what's happening, but it might work towards TFA's point.

It probably has to do with the fact that we condition children and adolescents to consider white-collar jobs as more noble than blue-collar jobs, then we tell them that to get a good white-collar job, they need a degree... and then we make STEM degrees hard by subjecting students to more math than most people realistically need. So we have a lot of frontend developers who know calculus and an oversupply of people wit…

Calculus is required for English degrees in other countries. Heck a lot of countries require some amount of calculus just to graduate high school.

Same goes for the basics of statistics. A basic understanding of statistics is a requirement for any college degree in many countries, and for good reasons. Stats comes up all the damn time. From proper A/B testing, to marketing, to understanding public health emergencies, to making informed medical decisions.

Re: The most-disliked people in the publishing industry

#45

Post by Nasrudith »

claw-el wrote: post #24
tptacek wrote: post #15

Bertelsmann (the owner of Random House) is a for-profit corporation just like Palantir (a defense contractor), but the employees of Random House don’t need to be paid as much as the employees at Palantir, because Random House is perceived (by its employees) as fundamentally good No? The employees of Random House don't need to be paid as much because the supply of qualified candidates for those roles greatly exceeds t…

Wouldn’t the supply of labor for a role or company increase if what the company do, books or video games, is associated to what most people see as good, therefore, they are more willing to build their long term skill sets in? That perceived associated goodness is what caused the increase in qualified candidates in the first place?

Technically yes, but it isn't just goodness. There are plenty of dirty jobs that do good and thus few people want it. The logical extreme is being a martyr - no pay and death but regarded as ultimate good.

Re: The most-disliked people in the publishing industry

#46

Post by com2kid »

chromacity wrote: post #43
x3n0ph3n3 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a shame that calculus isn't required by every college degree. Just because I'm not integrating functions during my normal work, doesn't mean I don't benefit from understanding the fundamental principles.

Yes, totally. I was about to undero surgery but found out the doctor didn't even know about Laplace transforms. He small-mindedly spent his formative years learning anatomy, never benefitting from the knowledge of frequency-domain derivatives. I dodged that bullet by storming out.

You joke, but if you talked to a doctor of radiology odds are they at least took a class covering Fourier Transforms.

Re: The most-disliked people in the publishing industry

#47

Post by robocat »

x3n0ph3n3 wrote: post #39
chromacity wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It probably has to do with the fact that we condition children and adolescents to consider white-collar jobs as more noble than blue-collar jobs, then we tell them that to get a good white-collar job, they need a degree... and then we make STEM degrees hard by subjecting students to more math than most people realistically need. So we have a lot of frontend developers who know calculus and an oversupply of people wit…

It's a shame that calculus isn't required by every college degree. Just because I'm not integrating functions during my normal work, doesn't mean I don't benefit from understanding the fundamental principles.

Would you say the same about learning Christianity: maybe not directly useful for your job, however it is rather foundational to much of English society.

Re: The most-disliked people in the publishing industry

#48

Post by tptacek »

djoldman wrote: post #41
tptacek wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people can reasonably go back and forth about whether they should be more compensated, but I don't think there's a reasonable conversation to have about teaching not being a well-compensated career path. I know this surprises a lot of people. (My mom is a retired CPS teacher.)

I assume the CTU came up a lot at the dinner table, haha. Shrug clearly teachers are paid more than the median wage. There isn't much to argue there. Modeling wage/salary is pretty straightforward for the majority of jobs (weighted by number of people working the job). There really aren't too many surprises. Monopoly/Oligopoly union power, licensing, labor supply, regulatory/compliance restrictions/barriers, and prod…

Hell if I know. This thread is based on a claim that people go into nursing and teaching out of altruism, and not for compensation. I'm pretty sure that's not true. Both are well-compensated, safe paths to a comfortable lifestyle and, especially for teaching, to a secure retirement.

No teacher is going to tell you they're not altruistic, and that they're in it for the money. They see themselves as doing good, and I agree that they are. But that's not what drives entrance into those fields.

Re: The most-disliked people in the publishing industry

#49

Post by gopher_space »

tptacek wrote: post #31
mold_aid wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost certain OP is referring to the fact that nurses and teachers are not well-paid or respected in the US, which I'd like to note as well. Despite this, Public Health as a pseudo-STEM major nearly ranks with STEM fields in general for majors seen as "workplace-ready." Maybe there are too many English majors (I honestly think the supply of careers is too low). But I think the "supply is greater than the demand" is…

If the claim is "nurses and teachers are poorly paid in the US", that claim is broadly false. K-12 teachers in major metro areas in the US have surprisingly generous comp packages: well above area median take-home salary with predictable ladders, very good benefits, and defined-benefit pension plans . There are school districts where teachers are poorly compensated, but they aren't the norm over the population as a w…

> well above area median take-home salary

For someone with masters-level education and years of experience?

Re: The most-disliked people in the publishing industry

#50

Post by tptacek »

hoppyhoppy2 wrote: post #42
tptacek wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Complexifiers for teaching: K12 cash comp in major population centers (CPS, SFUSD, Philly, MSP, &c) is sharply higher than that median, and, more importantly, teachers get a huge amount of non-cash comp. Can't say enough how valuable a defined-benefit pension is. All-in comp for a lot of rank-and-file K12 teachers in major metros is competitive with software development (in those regions; obviously excluding SFUSD).

Many teachers need a masters degree, which is much less true of the average worker.

Nah, that argument isn't going to get us anywhere: big school districts actually have incentive plans to get teachers masters degrees. New teachers don't need them, the district will reimburse some amount of tuition, and set you up with tuition discounts at partner universities. Once you have the masters, you get a significant pay bump. The masters situation with K12 education is a benefit more than it is a cost.
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