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Scientists are working on "everything vaccines"

economist.com

31–40 of 65 posts

Re: Scientists are working on "everything vaccines"

#31
post #29
post #6

> put the lungs into a constant state of readiness, allowing fast responses to almost any invading germ Succeeding at this would prove that our bodies have the capacity to do that but evolution "tuned" the system differently. A corollary would be that this vaccination is probably a net negative for public health, even if nobody'd really know why.

Evolution is not a process toward better quality of life and life expectancy of individuals. As long as enough individuals can reach the age to procreate in their environment evolution is done. Evolution didn’t train our bodies to reject the diseases we already have the vaccines for neither, so your reasoning would apply to smallpox as well. And what about viruses appeared after Homo sapiens evolved (such as HIV)?

I don't think it works like that, from my recollection of the uni courses I did 20 years ago.

Even a small advantage like 1% will quickly propagate in a population, because it's about advantage over 1,000s of generations.

That this disease defence CAN be turned on, means some people would have at some point had a genetic mutation to turn it on.

As the GP pointed out, therefore it must be a net negative from an evolutionary stand point.

I also suspect it would be calorific consumption, as someone else said, so it might be ok.

However, there are plausible other explanations. For example there are medical conditions that result from a too aggressive immune system and it could instead be reducing the chance of that occuring.

Re: Scientists are working on "everything vaccines"

#33
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>we can do better because we're purposeful. "Purposeful" does not help if we are mostly clueless.

There's no wise guiding force behind evolution. It's all guesswork.

There's no guessing force behind evolution. It's just statistics at scale.

Re: Scientists are working on "everything vaccines"

#34
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>we can do better because we're purposeful. "Purposeful" does not help if we are mostly clueless.

There's no wise guiding force behind evolution. It's all guesswork.

It might be guess work, but it has got a ruthless filter called natural selection and really long time to get here.

So I don't see your point. It is really tuning for surviving within the constrains.

Re: Scientists are working on "everything vaccines"

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no wise guiding force behind evolution. It's all guesswork.

There's no guessing force behind evolution. It's just statistics at scale.

Yea, so what is the point in this context?

Re: Scientists are working on "everything vaccines"

#36
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Evolution is not "tuning" it's just statistics at a huge scale. The high likelihood of back pain, the lack of important sensors, broken synthesis pathways, this is not a carefully tuned system, this is just blind luck plus statistics. Which means we can do better because we're purposeful.

>we can do better because we're purposeful. "Purposeful" does not help if we are mostly clueless.

We know enough specific things about immunology and about the illnesses we're trying to avoid to be something more than clueless and we're learning more all the time, including about the potential applications of "everything vaccines" that are being tested for potential programmatic use.

Re: Scientists are working on "everything vaccines"

#37
post #6

> put the lungs into a constant state of readiness, allowing fast responses to almost any invading germ Succeeding at this would prove that our bodies have the capacity to do that but evolution "tuned" the system differently. A corollary would be that this vaccination is probably a net negative for public health, even if nobody'd really know why.

We're not really calorie constrained anymore and most humans live in much denser environments than they used to. You would expect rate of exposure, the rate of mutation / change and the rate at which new pathogens appear to be higher than in the past. Consequently, you wouldn't necessarily expect ancestral "defaults" to be optimal for modern environments.

>We're not really calorie constrained anymore

Why do you bring this up? It seems a weird hypothesis to bring up given that the parent comment did not suggest the possibility...

Re: Scientists are working on "everything vaccines"

#38
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evolution is not a process toward better quality of life and life expectancy of individuals. As long as enough individuals can reach the age to procreate in their environment evolution is done. Evolution didn’t train our bodies to reject the diseases we already have the vaccines for neither, so your reasoning would apply to smallpox as well. And what about viruses appeared after Homo sapiens evolved (such as HIV)?

I don't think it works like that, from my recollection of the uni courses I did 20 years ago. Even a small advantage like 1% will quickly propagate in a population, because it's about advantage over 1,000s of generations. That this disease defence CAN be turned on, means some people would have at some point had a genetic mutation to turn it on. As the GP pointed out, therefore it must be a net negative from an evolut…

Thinking about your point- I bet we do not know if some people have it on or not. It feels like something that would have to be specifically investigated.

Re: Scientists are working on "everything vaccines"

#39
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evolution is not a process toward better quality of life and life expectancy of individuals. As long as enough individuals can reach the age to procreate in their environment evolution is done. Evolution didn’t train our bodies to reject the diseases we already have the vaccines for neither, so your reasoning would apply to smallpox as well. And what about viruses appeared after Homo sapiens evolved (such as HIV)?

I don't think it works like that, from my recollection of the uni courses I did 20 years ago. Even a small advantage like 1% will quickly propagate in a population, because it's about advantage over 1,000s of generations. That this disease defence CAN be turned on, means some people would have at some point had a genetic mutation to turn it on. As the GP pointed out, therefore it must be a net negative from an evolut…

I would say you are both right in that if you have two competing variables (on-time for the defence vs calorie consumption), when the main causes of death before procreating were infectious disease and malnutrition before modern times, I would expect some equilibrium to be reached and we have not had that much time to evolve since caloric scarcity in the western world was a solved problem for large swaths of the population.

If in the future we could trade a few hundred extra calories per day for a great immune system (without auto-immune side effects) we would have found a nice cheat code!

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