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Oracle files H-1B visa petitions amid mass layoffs

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Re: Oracle files H-1B visa petitions amid mass layoffs

#151

Post by theandrewbailey »

maest wrote: post #35
mikert89 wrote: post #17

Where did my standard of living go? Couldnt possibly have to do with imported labor working around the clock under the threat of being kicked out of the country

Cheap labour producing goods for the native population at low costs should increase your standard of living, no? It makes the products you buy cheaper. By your logic, if you were the only person in the country, you'd live like a king.

Cheaper goods in exchange for losing your well-paying job is an awful deal for the one who lost the job.

Re: Oracle files H-1B visa petitions amid mass layoffs

#152

Post by to11mtm »

Avicebron wrote: post #109
toomuchtodo wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose we simply disagree, and that is fine. I think the H-1B should be eliminated in favor of the O-1, the domestic labor exists, corporations would simply prefer "optimize their labor costs" and employ workers with reduced mobility via the H-1B. The data is clear from the salaries paid, which is public data. As I've commented previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46257889 "I am calling for a temporary…

> The US has an obligation to its citizens In an ideal world the US _is_ it's citizens. Importing thousands of "guest" workers on h1b visas who never end up leaving seems borderline seditious.

I wouldn't call it seditious.

It's actually exploitative, on both ends but one worse than the other.

H1Bs wind up feeling forced to work far more hours than they should, but then it adds pressure to any in-house employees to work more than they should too.

It's extra evident in the people that go from H1B to full citizenship, they often never learn to just take a break, sometimes to their own detriment.

Re: Oracle files H-1B visa petitions amid mass layoffs

#153

Post by avidiax »

BeetleB wrote: post #134

To all the folks here complaining that there is plenty of talent in the US to fill those roles: Honestly tell me: Would you ever apply to Oracle for a job?

I actually have applied, and I got the offer. And I didn't take it. Because Oracle is known for poor working conditions.

Why can Oracle continue to hire good talent despite offering poor working conditions? H1-B.

Is it circular? Absolutely.

There really should be a strict maximum percentage of visa hires for any particular job type at a company. Say, 2x the overall average for that job category, and never to exceed 30%.

If they still need more labor, then they need to attract and train local talent rather than relying solely on overseas talent.

Re: Oracle files H-1B visa petitions amid mass layoffs

#154

Post by ericye16 »

It's very sad how illiberal hackernews gets when it comes to H-1B visas and immigration in general. People will say that they are concerned about the welfare of H-1B holders because they can't leave their jobs but I've literally never heard anyone suggest an improvement (better portability, etc). Instead all anyone talks about is how bad it is that they have to compete against people from around the world. I think people are just afraid of a true meritocracy and maybe that's a bearish signal for the industry overall.

Re: Oracle files H-1B visa petitions amid mass layoffs

#155

Post by noosphr »

pj_mukh wrote: post #37
rdtsc wrote: post #8

Wherever their major offices are look for newspapers in the small towns nearby advertising for "Software developers for Oracle" all written in the tiniest print, right next to classified that sell used bikes, car parts and other stuff. - "Well, Uncle Sam, we looked so hard in US and nobody answered our job posts, we have to go to ... $othercountry to hire, there is no other way"

Just to cut through the headline here. The largest chunk of Oracle layoffs were in India [1]. In comparison, they've barely fired any American workers. Contrary to popular opinion, IT workers aren't interchangeable and there exist a large swath of jobs that very few people qualify for (HN should know this) because of the specialization required. America is at near full employment [2]. Replacing American workers with…

If America was near full employment you'd be seeing real wage growth. Something that's not existed since the 1970s.

Re: Oracle files H-1B visa petitions amid mass layoffs

#156

Post by finolex1 »

hackthemack wrote: post #118

I find the topic of the morality or effectiveness of having a H-1B a little bit intractable to reason about rationally. Consider a simplified model of the system. You have 2 countries, C1 and C2. Scenario 1: C1 has enough demand for 100 tech jobs. C1 only has 50 qualified natives for 100 tech jobs. The wages of C1 go up because there is more demand than supply. Scenario 2: C1 has enough demand for 100 tech jobs. C1 o…

It's not so simple because:

1. Companies can hire overseas. There's some cost to it in terms of added friction, but if wages rise enough in C1, then it's worth the friction to hire in C2 instead.

2. Workers also consume and invest, raising demand for other jobs. Employment is not a zero sum game, especially at the macro scale.

Re: Oracle files H-1B visa petitions amid mass layoffs

#157

Post by dudul »

ericye16 wrote: post #154

It's very sad how illiberal hackernews gets when it comes to H-1B visas and immigration in general. People will say that they are concerned about the welfare of H-1B holders because they can't leave their jobs but I've literally never heard anyone suggest an improvement (better portability, etc). Instead all anyone talks about is how bad it is that they have to compete against people from around the world. I think pe…

That's a silly comment. A simple search would show you that commenters often highlight that H1B are used to "chain" temporary workers to their job. And in past years, many called for changes to allow H1B workers to change jobs more easily.

However, we are not in the same economy we were 5 years ago. The job market is very tough and the H1B program makes less sense every day.

Why would Americans have to compete with the rest of the world exactly? The purpose of a country is to serve and protect its citizens first, not become a giant open bar for the entirety of humanity.

Re: Oracle files H-1B visa petitions amid mass layoffs

#158

Post by Avicebron »

to11mtm wrote: post #152
Avicebron wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US has an obligation to its citizens In an ideal world the US _is_ it's citizens. Importing thousands of "guest" workers on h1b visas who never end up leaving seems borderline seditious.

I wouldn't call it seditious. It's actually exploitative , on both ends but one worse than the other. H1Bs wind up feeling forced to work far more hours than they should, but then it adds pressure to any in-house employees to work more than they should too. It's extra evident in the people that go from H1B to full citizenship, they often never learn to just take a break, sometimes to their own detriment.

Overworking H1Bs isn't what people are concerned about (yes it's an issue and part of the problem because it's an extra incentive). Importing people to supplant the local talent who are more than capable of doing the work, widening the labor pool to weaken labor's power, claiming it's "meritocracy" and that everyone who doesn't agree is somehow racist or "illiberal" are the core issues.

Re: Oracle files H-1B visa petitions amid mass layoffs

#159

Post by JumpCrisscross »

noosphr wrote: post #155
pj_mukh wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to cut through the headline here. The largest chunk of Oracle layoffs were in India [1]. In comparison, they've barely fired any American workers. Contrary to popular opinion, IT workers aren't interchangeable and there exist a large swath of jobs that very few people qualify for (HN should know this) because of the specialization required. America is at near full employment [2]. Replacing American workers with…

If America was near full employment you'd be seeing real wage growth. Something that's not existed since the 1970s.

> real wage growth. Something that's not existed since the 1970s

Real wages are 15% higher than they were in 1979 [1].

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q

Re: Oracle files H-1B visa petitions amid mass layoffs

#160

Post by pvelagal »

H1B is used to hire the best talent that gets paid big bucks as well as cheap talent that is paid less. Both are true. It depends on the company.

I haven't seen Google or FB or Amazon or other top tech companies pay H1B any less. They get paid pretty well.

But firing people (some might be on H1B too) and hiring H1B at the same time is meaningless.

Btw, if you want to stop people from getting fired, J Powell needs to be fired. He is keeping interest rates high for any sort of hiring. These same companies hired like crazy during 0% interest rate environment.

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