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For Zelda-playing daughter, Dad gives Link a sex change

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Re: For Zelda-playing daughter, Dad gives Link a sex change

#111

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

jacalata wrote: post #73
1qaz2wsx3edc wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then again, having the kid realize their parents have been subverting reality could lead to trust and control issues between them. I'll admit it's nice, but at the same time it's delusionment.

That doesn't stop most parents from doing Santa Claus and the tooth fairy though.

I have a friend whose children were literally furious with her when they worked out that she'd been lying about Santa (which they immediately extrapolated to the tooth fairy, Easter bunny and so on).

Having young children myself I've thought a bunch about it. I'm not wild about the lying but when you see the enjoyment they get out of it, look back at how you felt about it when you were young (where deception doesn't rank highly amongst my recollections) and think about some of the other consequences (them being the only child in the playground who doesn't believe) generally you come down on the side of the lie.

My compromise (if you can call it that) is that I won't be one of those parents who strings it out when they seriously start questioning it. Aside form anything else at that point it seems like a great opportunity to ask them to exercise their reasoning skills to talk through why they're questioning it.

Re: For Zelda-playing daughter, Dad gives Link a sex change

#112

Post by lmm »

scott_s wrote: post #40
AgathaTheWitch wrote: post #26

This is a very cool hack, and I support the intention behind it. Still, it is something I would never do for two reasons: For one, as an author, I disagree with altering a text for a political purpose. To be sure, this instance is fairly innocuous, and parents frequently change bedtime stories on the fly to suit their kids. Nevertheless I consider the Legend of Zelda to be a text with its own mythology and themes, an…

I don't consider this a "political" purpose. It's not done for other people, it's done for his daughter.

If that were the case he wouldn't be publicising it.

Re: For Zelda-playing daughter, Dad gives Link a sex change

#113

Post by aidos »

rayiner wrote: post #86
agentultra wrote: post #16

Great idea and cool hack. I'm about to be the father of a baby girl soon myself and there is no end to the anxiety I hold for the struggles she's going to face simply because she's a girl. Although if she ever wants to know programming, maths, and how to solder a PCB I intend to be there for her... and perhaps editing hex dumps of games as well. Thanks for the tip!

As someone who is myself about to be the father of a baby girl any day now, congratulations! I have to admit, it is pretty shocking to realize for myself how gender-normative I am already being. Her room is Tiffany Blue and all her clothes are already pink. I hope I keep it to these superficial things...

Congratulations to you both! It's a wonderful journey.

As a completely unscientific experiment I just did some colour searches on Google Images. Pink and blue images make up 65% of the results for the word 'baby'. As you've probably already discovered, a trip down to your local baby shop doesn't offer a huge variation from this in terms of baby clothes.

Re: For Zelda-playing daughter, Dad gives Link a sex change

#114

Post by masklinn »

diN0bot wrote: post #53
wazoox wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In GEB, the protagonists are the Tortoise and Achilles. I think this particular passage is about the french translation that Hoefstader proof-read (as he's fluent in French); the French translator called the Tortoise "she", because "tortue" is of feminine gender so most "tortues" characters are naturally female in French.

This I wonder about: do feminine and masculine (and nueter) pronouns indicate gender when used for non-people beings, or must they match the word of those things? Ich hab' eine Hase, die wir Hans nennen. The pronoun is feminine to match the word Hase, even though the hare is male as indicated by his name. Oder würde man "Der [die Hase] heißt Hans" sagen?

> This I wonder about: do feminine and masculine (and nueter) pronouns indicate gender when used for non-people beings, or must they match the word of those things?

In french at least, words themselves have gender irrespective of the subject's gender. And pronouns usually match the word's gender. So a tortoise is feminine even if it's a male, so's a sparrow, a mole, a goat or a stork. Then, there may be subsets of the original word for each of the genders (or further differentiations by age). "Goat" in general is feminine but buck ("bouc") is masculine for instance.

Re: For Zelda-playing daughter, Dad gives Link a sex change

#115

Post by masklinn »

d0m wrote: post #99

Can't wait to read the article about the mom who hacked Lara Croft to have a guy rather than a girl as heroine.

That would actually be rather interesting. A significantly more extensive hack though, and maybe not one as "necessary" as there isn't exactly a dearth of male heroes in 3D adventure games.

Re: For Zelda-playing daughter, Dad gives Link a sex change

#116

Post by rmc »

Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #111
jacalata wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't stop most parents from doing Santa Claus and the tooth fairy though.

I have a friend whose children were literally furious with her when they worked out that she'd been lying about Santa (which they immediately extrapolated to the tooth fairy, Easter bunny and so on). Having young children myself I've thought a bunch about it. I'm not wild about the lying but when you see the enjoyment they get out of it, look back at how you felt about it when you were young (where deception doesn't…

they worked out that she'd been lying about Santa (which they immediately extrapolated to the tooth fairy, Easter bunny and so on).

I wonder did they extrapolate to Jesus?

Re: For Zelda-playing daughter, Dad gives Link a sex change

#117

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

rmc wrote: post #116
Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a friend whose children were literally furious with her when they worked out that she'd been lying about Santa (which they immediately extrapolated to the tooth fairy, Easter bunny and so on). Having young children myself I've thought a bunch about it. I'm not wild about the lying but when you see the enjoyment they get out of it, look back at how you felt about it when you were young (where deception doesn't…

they worked out that she'd been lying about Santa (which they immediately extrapolated to the tooth fairy, Easter bunny and so on). I wonder did they extrapolate to Jesus?

Jesus wasn't mentioned but as he'd never handed over toys, money or chocolate it may be that they kids were just less fussed about him.

Re: For Zelda-playing daughter, Dad gives Link a sex change

#118

Post by mnicole »

city41 wrote: post #104
ben0x539 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is he planning to do? "Patch" every possible subconscious connections that his daughter might make for the next 5-10 years? Maybe the plan is to make a bunch of noise about it so eventually game creators get used to the idea of catering to both halves of their audience. I hope it works.

But by no means is it "both halves." Game players are overwhelmingly male. And this has nothing to do with exposure or expectations, it's entirely possible that the female brain just isn't as interested in video games. My fiancée enjoys Mario on occasion (and does complain that the princess always needs rescuing), but she flat out does not get into games nearly as much as I do. She could if she wanted to, absolutely…

> women as a whole are less interested in video games.

We're nearing 50% of the market, just so you know.

Re: For Zelda-playing daughter, Dad gives Link a sex change

#119

Post by mnicole »

AgathaTheWitch wrote: post #26

This is a very cool hack, and I support the intention behind it. Still, it is something I would never do for two reasons: For one, as an author, I disagree with altering a text for a political purpose. To be sure, this instance is fairly innocuous, and parents frequently change bedtime stories on the fly to suit their kids. Nevertheless I consider the Legend of Zelda to be a text with its own mythology and themes, an…

> In the same way, girls can learn leadership and toughness from male protagonists and heroes.

As inspired as I am by men in web development, I don't get the same feeling of confidence as I do from other women in the industry. I would say that while these heroes are naturally going to have a positive effect on anyone, the females are inherently more relatable - and therefore more influential - to girls.

Re: For Zelda-playing daughter, Dad gives Link a sex change

#120

Post by wazoox »

breadbox wrote: post #77
wazoox wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In GEB, the protagonists are the Tortoise and Achilles. I think this particular passage is about the french translation that Hoefstader proof-read (as he's fluent in French); the French translator called the Tortoise "she", because "tortue" is of feminine gender so most "tortues" characters are naturally female in French.

Not quite. Achilles and the Tortoise originally came from an essay by Lewis Carroll. Hofstadter had borrowed them for GEB, and in doing so also borrowed their gender -- or so he thought. In reality when he went back to check, long after publication, he realized that Lewis Carroll had left the Tortoise completely genderless.

I dug up the book to check, and in the 20th anniversary preface page 16 and 17, a few lines before the previous quote there is :

"Mr Tortoise, meet Madame Tortue A few years later, a wholly unexpected chance came along to make amends, at least in part, for my sexist sin."

And here comes the French translators part:"[...] they rather gingerly asked me if I would ever consider letting them switch the Tortoise's sex to female."

So I don't see what's the contradiction you're trying to point out.

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