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Good ideas do not need lots of lies in order to gain public acceptance (2008)

blog.danieldavies.com

11–20 of 228 posts

Re: Good ideas do not need lots of lies in order to gain public acceptance (2008)

#11

> My reasoning was that Powell, Bush, Straw, etc, were clearly making false claims and therefore ought to be discounted completely, and that there were actually very few people who knew a bit about Iraq but were not fatally compromised in this manner who were making the WMD claim At the risk of missing the point, I have to say that knowing what we know now, this is a very poor heuristic. Predicting a lack of WMD was…

> Right now, we have a similar situation with AI. Not enough people are asking why AI is being pushed so hard. Instead they pointlessly bicker about its effectiveness.

We know why it's being pushed so hard - people need a return on all that money being burnt.

It's effectiveness is argued about because it's not clear one way or the other where things are, where they are heading, and where they will end up.

There has been a strong push for AI/AGI since before computing, so every time there's a breakthrough to the next level there's a hypewagon doing the rounds, followed by a "oh, actually it's not there yet" - and this time, like every other time, we go through a "is this the time? It's so tantalisingly close"

Are we actually there now? Emphatically no.

Are we at a point where it's usable and improving our lives - yes, with a PILE of caveats.

Edit: I wanted to add

There's always "True believers" whenever there is a fork in the road, and con artists looking to take advantage of them, but that happens whether there is a genuine breakthrough, or not - the hype is never a guide on whether the breakthrough exists OR not, so purely being a sceptic isn't worthwhile (IMO)

Re: Good ideas do not need lots of lies in order to gain public acceptance (2008)

#12

Interesting that this quote was initially about stock options at tech companies. It turned out that stock options did become nearly universal in tech compensation, and companies that granted them outcompeted companies that did not. So the management that was ostensibly “doing a massive blag at the expense of shareholders” wasn’t really, time vindicated their practices and things like option backdating and not treatin…

[deleted]

Re: Good ideas do not need lots of lies in order to gain public acceptance (2008)

#13
Having worked in public advocacy advertising, I’d frame it like this: “Good ideas don’t need lies” is a compelling ideal but in practice, public acceptance isn’t a reliable signal of truth or societal benefit. It depends on incentives, narratives, and how information is presented.

History shows that even harmful or suboptimal ideas (like coal power) can gain widespread support if presented persuasively, while genuinely beneficial ideas can struggle if they’re complex or unintuitive.

A useful heuristic is: if an idea relies on misleading claims to survive scrutiny, that’s a warning sign. But public acceptance itself is not proof of goodness or correctness.

In short: persuasion and truth are related—but far from identical.

Re: Good ideas do not need lots of lies in order to gain public acceptance (2008)

#14
post #6

Makes me think of academic papers that overhype their contribution. Also makes me think about AI hype.

For me the danger of AI is that it enables the surveillance state through facial recognition and the instantaneous aggregation of all my data. For "national security" reasons, I may be detained and denied of my rights if Palantir hallucinates. Who do I sue if Palantir decides I am an illegal?

Re: Good ideas do not need lots of lies in order to gain public acceptance (2008)

#15

Having worked in public advocacy advertising, I’d frame it like this: “Good ideas don’t need lies” is a compelling ideal but in practice, public acceptance isn’t a reliable signal of truth or societal benefit. It depends on incentives, narratives, and how information is presented. History shows that even harmful or suboptimal ideas (like coal power) can gain widespread support if presented persuasively, while genuine…

I think you just reinforced the articles point. Coal power needs lots of lies to justify it, as per your own statement.

That is in fact because coal energy is a terrible idea. It has 0 upsides compared to renewable alternatives, and is on the whole worse than even other non-renewable alternatives.

If you have to lie to make it sound good, that's probably because it isn't actually good

Re: Good ideas do not need lots of lies in order to gain public acceptance (2008)

#16

Having worked in public advocacy advertising, I’d frame it like this: “Good ideas don’t need lies” is a compelling ideal but in practice, public acceptance isn’t a reliable signal of truth or societal benefit. It depends on incentives, narratives, and how information is presented. History shows that even harmful or suboptimal ideas (like coal power) can gain widespread support if presented persuasively, while genuine…

You just raised another example of a bad idea that needed lies to gain public acceptance.

Re: Good ideas do not need lots of lies in order to gain public acceptance (2008)

#17

> My reasoning was that Powell, Bush, Straw, etc, were clearly making false claims and therefore ought to be discounted completely, and that there were actually very few people who knew a bit about Iraq but were not fatally compromised in this manner who were making the WMD claim At the risk of missing the point, I have to say that knowing what we know now, this is a very poor heuristic. Predicting a lack of WMD was…

It pretty clearly says, "Do not give liars the benefit of the doubt with respect to their current claims." If you want to believe there are WMDs in Iraq, do it because you have evidence, or at least the word of trustworthy people. Don't assume that there has to be a little fig leaf WMD in Iraq because the Emperor wouldn't really go out in public naked.

Was it immaterial to the fact that we were going to war, regardless of the effectiveness of the "sell"? Yes, that's true, but it gives a lot of cover to the Bush administration that so many people, including 110 Democratic congressmen, voted for the authorization to use military force.

Why is it being re-posted now? Who knows... AI, Iran, whatever.

Re: Good ideas do not need lots of lies in order to gain public acceptance (2008)

#19
post #6

Makes me think of academic papers that overhype their contribution. Also makes me think about AI hype.

For me the danger of AI is that it enables the surveillance state through facial recognition and the instantaneous aggregation of all my data. For "national security" reasons, I may be detained and denied of my rights if Palantir hallucinates. Who do I sue if Palantir decides I am an illegal?

Ot worse because it didn't hallucinate, and they are coming for you, as a free thinking "radical". They can tell from a long deleted blog post you made in 2005 about green energy.

Re: Good ideas do not need lots of lies in order to gain public acceptance (2008)

#20
This is what scares me the most about AI. You have a handful of really big companies trying to outdo each other as they race to implement it and deploy it as quickly as possible.

To try and justify their outrageous capital spending on data centers; they are incentivised to exaggerate its current capabilities and also what it will be capable of 'soon'.

There is no time to evaluate each step to make sure it is accurate and going in the right direction, before setting it loose on the public.

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