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Stop telling people to vote

jwz.org

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Re: Stop telling people to vote

#41

Post by kevinh »

It's amusing that jwz brings up the California Proposition system and says that you should vote no on everything when that itself is an uninformed statement to make. Even if you want to keep the status quo, simply voting no on every is not necessarily the correct decision.

In California all referendums (still named propositions on the ballot) are flipped. That is, voting YES means that you want to keep the status quo and voting NO means you want to change it.

I think uninformed people voting no across the board is what caused Proposition 40, a referendum dropped by those who originally proposed it, to get 27% voting no, despite absolutely no one being on the no side.

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#42

Post by zobzu »

geuis wrote: post #9

I take a diametrically opposed viewpoint to this. Everyone should be required to vote. In Australia, among other nations, if you don't vote you pay a fine. Voting in the U.S. should be as mandatory as jury duty, if not more so. When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it. There's this view in…

Fuck you. And yes, I'm taking the post author's words here. Because he's right.

You're brainwashed. Your vote actually means zero. ZERO. It's an illusion of choice, NOTHING more. So yeah, fuck you and your peers.

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#43

Post by jkn »

gojomo wrote: post #33
brennenHN wrote: post #8

The implied supremacy and paternalism in the post is pretty problematic. What is your threshold for informed? Should we have tests at the polls to make sure people have researched before they vote? Do you really want to make a case for an "informed" electorate instead of a more representative one? I know this post isn't saying to deny the vote to the "uninformed", just not to encourage them, but that sentiment implie…

Actually, the implied threshold is self-assessment. JWZ is suggesting: if you don't feel like you know or care enough to vote, feel free to not vote. That's actually pretty fair and efficient.

Looks like a very bad idea to me, since people who know more are more likely to think they don't know enough (e.g. Dunning-Kruger effect).

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#44

Post by zanny »

evoxed wrote: post #27
geuis wrote: post #9

I take a diametrically opposed viewpoint to this. Everyone should be required to vote. In Australia, among other nations, if you don't vote you pay a fine. Voting in the U.S. should be as mandatory as jury duty, if not more so. When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it. There's this view in…

I don't think the US population would react so well to a non-voter fine, but I do think it would be interesting to see what effect there would be if an automatic tax deduction or rebate was offered. I suppose you run the risk of disincentivizing a few very young voters, but the perspective would seem much more appealing (hopefully forcing less quibbles over the 'point' or allocation of taxes).

As an American, I want people to vote who want to vote and for no other reason. They should have nothing stopping them from voting if they want to, and nothing artificially pushing them towards doing so either.

The big problem in America with voting is that election day is not a national holiday. If there should be any incentive to vote, there should be fines for employers who don't give election day off (not saying people cant' elect to work that day, but it needs to be a default holiday), or a mandated pay hike to employees working election day (say, doctors, police, utilities workers, etc that can't really have a day off).

But absolutely don't mandate individuals vote. Its their right not to. You don't get to go around telling other people how to behave if it doesn't negative impact you. And the people not voting now won't become more inclined to get involved because they are forced to, in the same way children aren't intellectually stimulated by being forced to go to public schools.

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#46

Post by aquateen »

Tsagadai wrote: post #40
tomjen3 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been voting in all the elections I have been allowed to vote in. If I am ever forced to vote I won't. If the fine Is æarge enough, I will show up, get the ballot and rip it in pieces right then and there. Voting should be a privelege for the few who are very well informed, not the many who are not.

What elitist tripe. I've worked polling booths in Australia where people have come in and done exactly that (they have actively made a decision not to vote). That is their choice and I think that should be respected. I have no respect for the people who passively or apathetically don't vote. Politicians should represent the entire country and that is why I strongly support compulsory voting. Politicians should be for…

Politicians should represent the entire country...

Suppose I decide to vote instead of not voting at all. So now the winning candidate (who I may or may not have voted for) represents me, whereas he didn't if I hadn't voted?

...prisoners and convicted felons should also be given the right to a vote. If someone is going to pass laws that affect you, you should have a say in who that someone is.

Ok, what does that have to do with compulsory voting?

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#47

Post by aquateen »

zobzu wrote: post #42
geuis wrote: post #9

I take a diametrically opposed viewpoint to this. Everyone should be required to vote. In Australia, among other nations, if you don't vote you pay a fine. Voting in the U.S. should be as mandatory as jury duty, if not more so. When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it. There's this view in…

Fuck you. And yes, I'm taking the post author's words here. Because he's right. You're brainwashed. Your vote actually means zero. ZERO. It's an illusion of choice, NOTHING more. So yeah, fuck you and your peers.

I happen to agree with JWZ, but drop the attitude internet tough guy.

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#48

Post by saraid216 »

zanny wrote: post #44
evoxed wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the US population would react so well to a non-voter fine, but I do think it would be interesting to see what effect there would be if an automatic tax deduction or rebate was offered. I suppose you run the risk of disincentivizing a few very young voters, but the perspective would seem much more appealing (hopefully forcing less quibbles over the 'point' or allocation of taxes).

As an American, I want people to vote who want to vote and for no other reason. They should have nothing stopping them from voting if they want to, and nothing artificially pushing them towards doing so either. The big problem in America with voting is that election day is not a national holiday. If there should be any incentive to vote, there should be fines for employers who don't give election day off (not saying…

Or you could do like Washington State and change to a mail-only system. I voted weeks before Election Day, and then dropped my ballot off at my convenience.

I could see your argument for having deliberation day or something, but there are other solutions for the problem of long waiting lines at the polling place. (I was 18+ and resident in California previously, so I waited those lines, too. I wasn't employed then, though.)

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#49

Post by saraid216 »

tomjen3 wrote: post #23
geuis wrote: post #9

I take a diametrically opposed viewpoint to this. Everyone should be required to vote. In Australia, among other nations, if you don't vote you pay a fine. Voting in the U.S. should be as mandatory as jury duty, if not more so. When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it. There's this view in…

I have been voting in all the elections I have been allowed to vote in. If I am ever forced to vote I won't. If the fine Is æarge enough, I will show up, get the ballot and rip it in pieces right then and there. Voting should be a privelege for the few who are very well informed, not the many who are not.

> Voting should be a privelege for the few who are very well informed, not the many who are not.

Except that you're not very well-informed. So why are you voting?

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#50

Post by icelancer »

geuis wrote: post #9

I take a diametrically opposed viewpoint to this. Everyone should be required to vote. In Australia, among other nations, if you don't vote you pay a fine. Voting in the U.S. should be as mandatory as jury duty, if not more so. When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it. There's this view in…

Voting is not something I am forced to do. Do you think I don't vote because I am lazy? I don't vote because our election process is a crock of horseshit masked as something that actually makes a difference.

Where do you get off coercing me to participate in an obviously broken system?

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