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Stop telling people to vote

jwz.org

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Re: Stop telling people to vote

#21

Post by dllthomas »

"Corrolary: You should vote "NO" on every Proposition unless you actually know what the fuck you're talking about. The California Proposition system is asinine, and the way to do least harm is to reject by default."

This is half correct, and that half is very much my policy. If the proposition is for something the legislature can and should be doing, I vote no; we are paying people to give these issues more time and attention than I can afford to.

There are three places this differs from the above, though.

1) If the proposition deals with something that hugely favors incumbents to the point that the legislatures won't touch it for fear of job security.

2) If the proposition is for something the legislature can't do (Constitutional amendment that really needs to be a Constitutional amendment).

3) Most significantly, there are places (raising taxes, mostly) where we have tied the hands of our legislature with previous propositions, and require a proposition.

For 3), my default position is yes; vote for decent legislators and let them do their jobs.

For the first two, I try to make a point of learning enough about propositions of that nature that I can make an intelligent decision. If I can't, however, my default is to not vote on those measures.

On propositions for things that the legislature can and should do, I agree whole-heartedly - vote no.

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#22

Post by randomdata »

geuis wrote: post #9

I take a diametrically opposed viewpoint to this. Everyone should be required to vote. In Australia, among other nations, if you don't vote you pay a fine. Voting in the U.S. should be as mandatory as jury duty, if not more so. When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it. There's this view in…

When someone threatens to take that away, people are rather vocal about protecting it.

I expect people would be just as vocal, if not more, if the right to vote was threatened. The right to vote comes with the right to elect to not vote, and people like it that way.

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#23

Post by tomjen3 »

geuis wrote: post #9

I take a diametrically opposed viewpoint to this. Everyone should be required to vote. In Australia, among other nations, if you don't vote you pay a fine. Voting in the U.S. should be as mandatory as jury duty, if not more so. When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it. There's this view in…

I have been voting in all the elections I have been allowed to vote in. If I am ever forced to vote I won't. If the fine Is æarge enough, I will show up, get the ballot and rip it in pieces right then and there.

Voting should be a privelege for the few who are very well informed, not the many who are not.

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#25

Post by JEVLON »

jacques_chester wrote: post #12
geuis wrote: post #9

I take a diametrically opposed viewpoint to this. Everyone should be required to vote. In Australia, among other nations, if you don't vote you pay a fine. Voting in the U.S. should be as mandatory as jury duty, if not more so. When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it. There's this view in…

> When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it. I'm Australian. Compulsory voting does no such thing. Australians begrudge voting (and that we must fully enumerate our preferences). The pragmatic reason for having compulsory voting is to provide a better sample of what the population wants. In…

I agree that it improves the quality of outcomes. If the general population does not vote, then minorities will push their own agendas, which may be opposed to the general population.

Some examples in regards to one minority: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/nov/02/usa.religion http://www.hopscotchfilms.com.au/catalogue/god-on-my-side http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Abramoff

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#26

Post by [deleted] »

josnyder wrote: post #4

jwz's thesis, that uninformed people shouldn't vote, is overwhelmingly correct. I consider myself to be well-informed, politically speaking. Yet I voted in only 7 of 17 races on my ballot. I am not, for example, equipped to make informed choices for my jurisdiction's school board. All ballots should come with a "No vote" option. What would the difference be from just leaving it blank? Nothing, except that it would gi…

[deleted]

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#27

Post by evoxed »

geuis wrote: post #9

I take a diametrically opposed viewpoint to this. Everyone should be required to vote. In Australia, among other nations, if you don't vote you pay a fine. Voting in the U.S. should be as mandatory as jury duty, if not more so. When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it. There's this view in…

I don't think the US population would react so well to a non-voter fine, but I do think it would be interesting to see what effect there would be if an automatic tax deduction or rebate was offered. I suppose you run the risk of disincentivizing a few very young voters, but the perspective would seem much more appealing (hopefully forcing less quibbles over the 'point' or allocation of taxes).

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#28

Post by dobro »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #10

Ok, so please define "informed". Political opinion seems to suffer from an especially savage form of Dunning–Kruger. Often are the most steadfast and vocal in their opinions and the least objective. Let's say for example, the economy. Maybe one party suggests lowering taxes on the "middle class" to stimulate spending and the other guy wants to make sure we don't tax the "job creators" so that they don't move overseas…

>How am I supposed to know which is best? Do I need a degree in Keynesian economics or can I just listen to a few talking heads on the local news?

You're not supposed to vote for what is "best".

You are supposed to vote for what you WANT to happen.

It could be the worst thing for the country but very good for you. That's OK too, if a tad selfish.

Now, if you don't know what you want or what is good for you, you still get to decide. Anything major that will be legislated, like taxes, WILL affect you. So, what would you do if you don't know which option is the best? What you do in every similar situation in life:

a) User your direct knowledge. b) Use your experience. c) Try to learn for other people that know that stuff. d) Discuss it with others in general. e) Read up on the issue. d) When everything fails, just your gut.

You'll have to suffer any consequences anyway.

And it's not like you can just have people with "degrees" and experts to make your opinion, or have the only right to vote on an issue.

1) For one, because those people also have biases, personal interests and hidden agendas. And even the non outright lying ones can be partisan, deluded, dogmatic, ideological or simply idiots with rich dads that bought them a good education.

2) Second, YOU'LL suffer from the consequences of any law, so it's YOUR decision to make, not theirs.

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#29

Post by hef19898 »

tomjen3 wrote: post #23
geuis wrote: post #9

I take a diametrically opposed viewpoint to this. Everyone should be required to vote. In Australia, among other nations, if you don't vote you pay a fine. Voting in the U.S. should be as mandatory as jury duty, if not more so. When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it. There's this view in…

I have been voting in all the elections I have been allowed to vote in. If I am ever forced to vote I won't. If the fine Is æarge enough, I will show up, get the ballot and rip it in pieces right then and there. Voting should be a privelege for the few who are very well informed, not the many who are not.

Your first point is pretty valid, it it basically the better way of not voting, since in this case the percentage of people wanting neither A nor B will be pretty accuratly known. And this, in turn could provide a much better picture of public opinion which in turn could take out a lot of political bickering and infighting.

But I completely disagree on your second point. A living democracy cannot live on just the "well informed few". In a system like this, fate of the society and almost all discussions would be dominated but exactly these choosen few, a self-percieved elite. In consequence, democracy wont be anymore, as are open discussions on issues important to any one. Voting in a democracy is not a privelege but a right to any citizen notwithstanding his position in life or his education or knowledge on a given subject.

If these "well informed few" have a special duty, it is to get all the rest at least well informed enough to not follow polical populists and extremist.

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#30

Post by ekimekim »

tomjen3 wrote: post #23
geuis wrote: post #9

I take a diametrically opposed viewpoint to this. Everyone should be required to vote. In Australia, among other nations, if you don't vote you pay a fine. Voting in the U.S. should be as mandatory as jury duty, if not more so. When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it. There's this view in…

I have been voting in all the elections I have been allowed to vote in. If I am ever forced to vote I won't. If the fine Is æarge enough, I will show up, get the ballot and rip it in pieces right then and there. Voting should be a privelege for the few who are very well informed, not the many who are not.

And I would have no problem with you tearing up the ballot. As long as you were forced to go there, collect it, and tear it up instead of voting.

The important thing is that the effort required to vote or not vote should be the same. This prevents laziness, being too busy, as well as factors like transport or long lines from being part of your decision.

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