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Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

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Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#281

Post by tedunangst »

rayiner wrote: post #198
_casperc wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not helping people because of their race, so why use that to select who gets help? There are rich black people as well as there are poor white people.

Think of this mathematically. We did something very wrong at time T = 0. It is a matter of fact that economic wrongs are self-perpetuating and long-lived. Thus, at time T = 450, you can isolate, statistically, some economic disadvantage in any black person who can trace their lineage back as being affected by that original wrong at T = 0. It doesn't matter how rich they are--they would be incrementally richer had tha…

What percentage of the US population is descended from people who primarily immigrated after 1865?

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#282

Post by jshen »

clarky07 wrote: post #183
vec wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but the absolutely most qualified person for a whole bunch of things is disproportionately often white and male. And even if we as a society wake up tomorrow magically not racist or sexist at all, that will be the case for the foreseeable future simply because white men have disproportionate amounts of money and connections. Hiring through AA is _intentionally_ suboptimal. The whole point is to give members of d…

Instead we discriminate against the poor white guy from the ghetto growing up with a single mom? Brilliant. That guy had none of the supposed white male advantages. Hire/accept people based on their merits. If you want to take into account overcoming adversity that's fine with me. But picking someone based on the color of their skin, be it white, black, or other, is wrong, and it's racist.

I'm that white guy from the ghetto with a single mom. I'm an executive now, and I'm sure it was easier for me than a black kid from my old neighborhood.

Let me change the subject slightly, people who are tall and good looking have more opportunity and success than those that aren't. No one, even you, are making purely rational decisions based on merit. All of us make decisions that are influenced by things we aren't aware of.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#283

Post by Karunamon »

king_jester wrote: post #272
Karunamon wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This instance of a job ad with a stated preference for native peoples is discriminatory, yes, but that is wholly acceptable given the state the US and its policies have put native peoples in. You agree that it's discrimination. Finally. So discrimination is okay in certain circumstances. .. I find that hard to accept. Again, you're proposing that the answer for discrimination is more discrimination. What does violen…

> So discrimination is okay in certain circumstances. Yes absolutely, we discriminate all the time and discrimination is a morally neutral thing. I think you are mostly speaking about racial discrimination, because most people most certainly support discrimination for, say, a choice between skilled and unskilled people when hiring for a particular job role. > What does violent crime and equal participation in society…

>that says to me that you either aren't familiar with the data about this.

Pretty much this. Thank you for being helpful :)

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#284

Post by clicks »

Locke1689 wrote: post #227
clicks wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, a small off-topic question: why did you again and again misspell 'discrimination'? You sound too educated to make the mistake -- and I'm not aware of any alternative spellings of the word. So, why did you spell it that way? I'm just genuinely curious.

Haven't noticed that I often do -- every once in a while I will misspell a word because the correct spelling "looks wrong." I've noticed that it often feels like the effects of semantic satiation[1] -- perhaps the two are cognitively related? Usually I will catch it when I have a spell checker on hand, but I didn't when I was writing that comment. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_satiation

I think you were maybe drawing some parallels with the word "decriminalization" in your mind -- which makes sense, because the word is being used a lot (with news of marijuana regulation and such).

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#285

Post by eiwrwoeriu »

iy56 wrote: post #247
tg3 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but ignoring prior wrongs also don't make them right. The goal should be to try to make the shackled man whole again, not just free. To give him what he needs to participate in society as if he had never been shackled. It doesn't take much statistical or anecdotal evidence to see that we are a long way off from that ideal scenario.

Many people disagree with you about what the goal should be. You can't turn back time and undo abuse. Trying to do so is just a waste of resources. In the race metaphor, the solution would be to just make sure everyone starts on a even footing in the next heat. In real life, I would say that means making sure all children have equal access to healthcare and education, regardless of their parents' income or circumstan…

>>You can't turn back time and undo abuse

Sure you can. The ancestors of those slaves are still suffering from that abuse. Your willful blindness is disgusting. The truth is that you are a racist. Only a racist would ignore all logic and pretend that the blacks of today are not a product of the slavery of yesterday. That the reason that they are poor and disadvantage compared to whites is because of the systematic oppression against them for hundreds of years. And the fact that many people agree with your comments shows that we are still infected with racism. Not as bad as before, but still going. You are proof of it.

And yes I'm angry, angry that racists people like you pretend that they are not racists.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#286

Post by grannyg00se »

king_jester wrote: post #188
grannyg00se wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oppression requires a power imbalance. Racism only requires using race as a classification upon which you base your actions. Choosing who you hang out with simply based on race is racism even though ut is not a power imbalance. And you can act to counteract an institutional imbalance caused by racism without furthering racism. Focus on something else. Race is being reinforced as an accepted means to classify people a…

> Racism only requires using race as a classification upon which you base your actions. This completely flies in the face of the history of racism and racism systems in the US. The most raw and visceral forms of slavery and de-facto slavery in the US are most certainly based on power imbalance. Being disproportionately affected by laws and economic policy drafted by mostly white political bodies is a power imbalance.…

"This completely flies in the face of the history of racism and racism systems in the US. The most raw and visceral forms of slavery and de-facto slavery in the US are most certainly based on power imbalance"

I didn't say racism can't exist with power imbalance, I said it doesn't require it. Obviously racism, combined with a power imbalance is worse than racism without the power imbalance. But choosing who you hang out with based solely on skin color is also racist - no power imbalance.

"policies such as affirmative action do not further racism..."

Yes they do, by encouraging people to think that making decisions based on race is acceptable and in fact encouraged by the government.

"This is a total derailment. Institutional oppressions are highly linked to racism, to ignore it is to dismiss the criticisms and voices of people of color point this power imbalance out."

I didn't say it should be ignored. I said it shouldn't be the focus. You can acknowledge that racism and oppression is a problem. You can punish those who make decisions based on race, and you can show that making race an issue in your decisions is wrong - by not continuing to do it.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#287

Post by jebblue »

danilocampos wrote: post #276
jpiasetz wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Absent significant study, it is absolutely not the place of someone who is a member of the racial majority to declare the extent or impact of racism. You simply have no idea what you're talking about. The opposite is also true: "Absent significant study, it is absolutely not the place of someone who is a member of the racial minority to declare the extent or impact of racism." Why not say simply it is not the place…

> Also I believe you are assuming the race of the parent. For all you know they could be a member of a racial minority. You believe incorrectly. I did my homework. http://geekpolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/derekclar... But the rest of silliness about white people having it harder than minorities was the giveaway. > The opposite is also true: "Absent significant study, it is absolutely not the place of someon…

>> But the rest of silliness about white people having it harder than minorities was the giveaway.

I grew up poor, light skin (white?) part Scottish descent small part Native American Indian. I trained myself to get into the profession I love, buying my own books and writing code in several languages for a dozen years on the side while maintaining a full time job and family, before I started writing code for pay.

No one person in America deserves more than any one else based on the color of their skin.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#288

Post by grannyg00se »

vertr wrote: post #171
grannyg00se wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oppression requires a power imbalance. Racism only requires using race as a classification upon which you base your actions. Choosing who you hang out with simply based on race is racism even though ut is not a power imbalance. And you can act to counteract an institutional imbalance caused by racism without furthering racism. Focus on something else. Race is being reinforced as an accepted means to classify people a…

Your definition of racism is incorrect. "Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior or superior." Wikipedia.

What I said racism is: "using race as a classification upon which you base your actions"

What your quote says: "...practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into groups called races."

I don't see how my definition is all that far off.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#289

Post by eiwrwoeriu »

ams6110 wrote: post #278
saraid216 wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know. Oh, come on. Think a little. Let's say your entire family was enslaved and made to work on a plantation for a few generations. How much money would you want for that? Why offer the alternative if you can't come up with a number?

Because there is no number. The premise is flawed. This is just such a nonproductive outlook to have. How far back do any of us have to go before we find our ancestors living in tyranny or serfdom or slavery. For many of us, not too many generations I bet. What does it have to do with our lives, today? If you go looking for a reason to be a victim, to find justifications for your problems, you'll never get past them.…

>> How far back do any of us have to go before we find our ancestors living in tyranny or serfdom or slavery.

Nice way of trying to distract from the main issue. We are talking about a very specific case. Blacks right now are still suffering from systematic oppression against them for hundreds of year. To ignore that and pretend that it is no big deal because it has happened before doesn't mean that we should not try to fix the problem. Frankly is disgusting the way you are dismissive of the current state of black people which is a direct consequence of hundreds of years of oppression which was not even that long ago.

>>Because there is no number

Sure there is, to claim otherwise is moronic. People are simply unwilling to pay. Affirmative action is a small price and still prcks like you think it is too much. Racist prck.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#290

Post by Synthetase »

clarky07 wrote: post #239
Natsu wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious, but what do you get if you multiply those percentages by the size of those groups?

~24 mil white ~11 mil black ~14 mil hispanic Imagine that. All kinds of people leaving in poverty and having disadvantaged lives.

African Americans constitute 15% of America.

White Americans constitute 74% of America.

Thus African Americans are more than twice as likely to live under the poverty line. Those are not I odds I would like to gamble with had I been born black.

You won a lottery when you were born.

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