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Why the US Navy won't blast the Iranians and 'open' Strait of Hormuz

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Re: Why the US Navy won't blast the Iranians and 'open' Strait of Hormuz

#221

Post by jandrewrogers »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #195
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this shift in carrier-based projection of power in the era of low-cost drones Nothing in this war has suggested carriers are obsolete. A carrier that launches drones and fields an anti-drone strike group would be amazing. We don’t have that. (And even what we do have is great in the carrier department, it’s given us air parity to superiority from way offshore.)

Would it not be preferable to launch drones from less of a big target? The issue is that the carrier is clearly visible and targetable. You could go submersible or just spam much smaller ships with smaller payloads. In those cases you get the benefits of the same level of assault without the potential of a hugely expensive loss. At a guess, I assume much of the scale of carriers is tied to the logistics of air power,…

Large aircraft are the cheapest and most scalable way to deliver a ton of explosive on target. That's why aircraft carriers exist. Everything else either is too expensive per unit of destruction or sacrifices too much lethality.

The size of the ship has little bearing on the visibility of it to sensors. You should also consider that it is much more difficult to sink a large ship than a small ship.

Re: Why the US Navy won't blast the Iranians and 'open' Strait of Hormuz

#222

Post by Quarrelsome »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #221
Quarrelsome wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it not be preferable to launch drones from less of a big target? The issue is that the carrier is clearly visible and targetable. You could go submersible or just spam much smaller ships with smaller payloads. In those cases you get the benefits of the same level of assault without the potential of a hugely expensive loss. At a guess, I assume much of the scale of carriers is tied to the logistics of air power,…

Large aircraft are the cheapest and most scalable way to deliver a ton of explosive on target. That's why aircraft carriers exist. Everything else either is too expensive per unit of destruction or sacrifices too much lethality. The size of the ship has little bearing on the visibility of it to sensors. You should also consider that it is much more difficult to sink a large ship than a small ship.

sure but if we're simply delivering drones then it might be better to have 1,000 small platforms than one big one. You can then still use the carrier in its classical role from further back.

Re: Why the US Navy won't blast the Iranians and 'open' Strait of Hormuz

#223

Post by free652 »

RobotToaster wrote: post #214
narrator wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump already said he was just going to bomb all their infrastructure so the economy of the country couldn't function if they didn't negotiate and then it's just going to be a mass refugee crisis. It would be a mass refugee crisis anyway with a protracted ground invasion, but more Americans would die, so Trump is choosing to get it over with the easy way for America at least if they won't negotiate. IMHO, This is pre…

Are we just going to ignore the fact that targeting civilian infrastructure is yet another war crime?

That's dual use infrastructure. Its also used for military and goverment purposes, right? The same as China providing weapons components to Russia, masking them as "civilian".

Re: Why the US Navy won't blast the Iranians and 'open' Strait of Hormuz

#224

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

RobotToaster wrote: post #214
narrator wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump already said he was just going to bomb all their infrastructure so the economy of the country couldn't function if they didn't negotiate and then it's just going to be a mass refugee crisis. It would be a mass refugee crisis anyway with a protracted ground invasion, but more Americans would die, so Trump is choosing to get it over with the easy way for America at least if they won't negotiate. IMHO, This is pre…

Are we just going to ignore the fact that targeting civilian infrastructure is yet another war crime?

We'll make Hegseth regret it deeply when the time comes for his trial, but right now I don't know that there's much to do about that fact.

Re: Why the US Navy won't blast the Iranians and 'open' Strait of Hormuz

#225

Post by tim333 »

>The era of carrier-dominated airpower is fading, as cheap, unmanned anti-ship weapons reshape naval warfare, whether US planners are ready for it or not.

is not really backed up by reality. Pretty much the whole US operation so far, destroying much of Iran's military and leadership was done from US carriers. If anything it demonstrates how powerful they are.

Also straits being closed to shipping by whatever power controls the shores is not a new thing. The Bosphophorous has been closed on and off by the Ottomans or Turks since 1453 and the allies couldn't break through in WW1. They can send raiding ships, use canons, artillery, naval mines etc. You don't need the new tech.

Re: Why the US Navy won't blast the Iranians and 'open' Strait of Hormuz

#226

Post by [deleted] »

scrubs wrote: post #204
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> America has lost the capability to manufacture anything at scale We make plenty of stuff at scale. We just haven’t designed any of military around it since WWII. > unclear if we can do much other than threaten sanctions and nukes We could learn from our allies in Ukraine. Give them capital and manufacturing bases in America.

We (the US) probably spend too much per munition and do not have manufacturing capacity like China. We're not helpless, but i dont get the sense we have plenty of stock either. Both are problems. (1) In this back and forth I'm surprised mines in the straight are not mentioned. (2) im having difficulty seeing how cheap drones incapacitates a carrier. They are there to project force well into enemy territory for precis…

[deleted]

Re: Why the US Navy won't blast the Iranians and 'open' Strait of Hormuz

#227

Post by CamperBob2 »

NooneAtAll3 wrote: post #169
pjc50 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We could learn from our allies in Ukraine. Give them capital and manufacturing bases in America I think the Ukranians are still unimpressed with the withdrawal of US support, especially from the shells which were being manufactured in the US (now moved to Rheinmetall), and the de-sanctioning of Russian oil: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2871wyz9ko

Ukrainians are unimpressed that US no longer supports war to exhaustion. US in unimpressed that Ukraine supported other side in elections Problem is that US wants to distance itself instead of ending the conflict

US in unimpressed that Ukraine supported other side in elections

Considering that Trump literally tried to blackmail Zelenskyy in his first term, why on earth would they have supported him in 2020?

Re: Why the US Navy won't blast the Iranians and 'open' Strait of Hormuz

#228

Post by babypuncher »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #181
narrator wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump already said he was just going to bomb all their infrastructure so the economy of the country couldn't function if they didn't negotiate and then it's just going to be a mass refugee crisis. It would be a mass refugee crisis anyway with a protracted ground invasion, but more Americans would die, so Trump is choosing to get it over with the easy way for America at least if they won't negotiate. IMHO, This is pre…

What this current administration is doing speaks much more of a lack of strategy than what the Khans did in the 13th century. Not having any sort of counterplay to Iran's one big move (the blocking of the straight), in a nation of some of the brighest minds on the planet, speaks volumes of how advisors are clearly not being listened to. The powers of the once mighty Republic have seemingly been vested in the hands of…

> a nation of some of the brighest minds on the planet

The brightest minds we had working in government have all quit or been fired in the last year.

Re: Why the US Navy won't blast the Iranians and 'open' Strait of Hormuz

#229

Post by shake_head_pig2 »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #181
narrator wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump already said he was just going to bomb all their infrastructure so the economy of the country couldn't function if they didn't negotiate and then it's just going to be a mass refugee crisis. It would be a mass refugee crisis anyway with a protracted ground invasion, but more Americans would die, so Trump is choosing to get it over with the easy way for America at least if they won't negotiate. IMHO, This is pre…

What this current administration is doing speaks much more of a lack of strategy than what the Khans did in the 13th century. Not having any sort of counterplay to Iran's one big move (the blocking of the straight), in a nation of some of the brighest minds on the planet, speaks volumes of how advisors are clearly not being listened to. The powers of the once mighty Republic have seemingly been vested in the hands of…

[dead]

Re: Why the US Navy won't blast the Iranians and 'open' Strait of Hormuz

#230

Post by wvbdmp »

Balgair wrote: post #113

In chapter 11 of All Quiet on the Western Front Paul and his unit find an abandoned food cache in the middle of no mans land. Instead of secreting away the food back to their lines where they will have to share it, they decide to just cook and eat it right then and there. But a spotter plane from the allies sees the smoke and then begins shelling their position. Cue a terrifying, if hilarious, scene where the soldier…

It’s difficult to imagine something more psychologically damaging than WWI trenches. Where can we read more about this?
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