Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old • Hacker News Board

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#171

Post by vertr » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 6:04 PM UTC

grannyg00se wrote: post #156

alxp wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is racist by the fact that it is based on race. Your definition is too simplistic. Racism isn't just prejudice based on race. Racism requires a power imbalance. Acting to counteract an institutional imbalance caused by racism is not "just anotehr kind of racism."

Oppression requires a power imbalance. Racism only requires using race as a classification upon which you base your actions. Choosing who you hang out with simply based on race is racism even though ut is not a power imbalance. And you can act to counteract an institutional imbalance caused by racism without furthering racism. Focus on something else. Race is being reinforced as an accepted means to classify people a…

Your definition of racism is incorrect.

"Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior or superior."

Wikipedia.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#172

Post by omni » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 6:08 PM UTC

bdunbar wrote: post #154

mkr-hn wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you basing your assertion on? I indicated an inclination. It's inherently an opinion. You made an assertion of fact.

Data. And you?

I believe it's common courtesy to actually provide some citations when you claim you have data.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#173

Post by Locke1689 » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 6:08 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #139

mtoddh wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just recognize that (I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume) that, because you are a middle class white man, probably 90% of the reason you oppose "affirmative action" is because it negatively impacts your own demographic group. Arguments for or against AA aside, this line of reasoning, where you invalidate somebody's argument based on what demographic group they belong to (white middle class males in this cas…

Sigh... First: that's not a logical argument, it's a message directly to the poster (and anyone like-minded, probably including you) intended to provoke introspection. Read it again, I don't claim anything in those words says anything about AA. Second: you seriously think it's inappropriate to point out that people tend to have opinions which advantage their own station? Really? You're not simply saying that this is…

I agree that affirmative action is a good thing, but I thought it was a quite interesting discussion we were having.

Let's go back to the original topic at hand and refrain from derailing the discussion with personal messages directly to the poster and those like-minded.

A good argument is not solely made up of logical arguments, but it does not sacrifice logic for pathos. If your argument is sound you should be able to defend it both logically and emotionally.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#174

Post by debacle » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 6:09 PM UTC

arrrg wrote: post #134

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's accept that rational; but that does leave one question: when does this end? If we have no way to measure the damage then how do we measure the resolution of the damage? Do we continue this for 5, 10, 50, 100, 500 years? Or do we simply never end it? Do we try to "correct" it so there are literally no poor people of a particular ethnicity? How realistic is that?

How about until there no longer is any significant racism that systematically disadvantages black people?

There's always going to be significant racism against any demographic that is legally put above or below others.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#175

Post by clarky07 » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 6:11 PM UTC

nvarsj wrote: post #168

clarky07 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead we have a system that systematically disadvantages non black people. Just stop discriminating. Either way. No reason to have one or the other have an advantage. We just had a black man elected to his second term as president, so I think that's a pretty good sign we aren't that racist. This wouldn't have happened a few decades ago.

> Instead we have a system that systematically disadvantages non black people. This is patently false. If you're white, you're at a huge advantage from birth. It's trivial to find data supporting this.

I'm not saying in general, I'm talking specifically about AA. With affirmative action and applying to something like grad school, a minority that is "qualified" can and will get a spot over a non-minority, that is "slightly more qualified."

In general, averaging across all of America, I'm certain it's an advantage to be white. I'm also certain it's an advantage to grow up to rich parents. I'm also certain it's an advantage to grow up in a good school district. It's also and advantage to grow up in a 2 parent household. It's an advantage to not grow up in the ghetto, white or black.

Life isn't fair, but at the end of the day at some point you have to be accountable for your decisions and all you can do is your best. Picking a winner based on skin color is not the right answer. We should always be picking the absolutely most qualified person for everything. That is something that clearly doesn't happen enough.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#176

Post by dharmach » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 6:19 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #110

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with affirmative action is that it is based on race. It is racist. In fact it isn't just based on race, it is based on skin colour - since some mixed black-white people with white skin can be discriminated against. America needs to put race on the sidelines and start thinking in terms of class. You should help the disadvantaged or poor regardless of their great great grandparent's struggles. Affirmative a…

The justification and rationale for race-based affirmative action is somewhat different from anything favoring people of low socioeconomic class generally. It has to do with correcting specific and massive historical wrongs in which our government was complicit, not lifting up disadvantaged people generally. Conflating the two is a little silly. If I destroy your house, you're not going to be happy if I make amends t…

People are willing to wash their hands off their ancestors' sins but without realizing the booty they keep enjoying from the same ancestors. How fair is that a guy shackled for years is freed suddenly and asked to participated in a race as an equal?

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#177

Post by debacle » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 6:20 PM UTC

Obama's secret weapon this Tuesday was Mitt Romney.

John Huntsman, had he have won the primaries, would have won the election.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#178

Post by iy56 » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 6:25 PM UTC

dharmach wrote: post #176

rayiner wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The justification and rationale for race-based affirmative action is somewhat different from anything favoring people of low socioeconomic class generally. It has to do with correcting specific and massive historical wrongs in which our government was complicit, not lifting up disadvantaged people generally. Conflating the two is a little silly. If I destroy your house, you're not going to be happy if I make amends t…

People are willing to wash their hands off their ancestors' sins but without realizing the booty they keep enjoying from the same ancestors. How fair is that a guy shackled for years is freed suddenly and asked to participated in a race as an equal?

So we should shackle the other guy for a few years to compensate? Two wrongs don't make a right.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#179

Post by 001sky » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 6:28 PM UTC

arrrg wrote: post #76

kitsune_ wrote: post #3

This article is nothing more than blog spam. Yeah, it provides a link back to the original post, but that's about it. Even most of the images are lifted.

Nothing was lifted. The article was published on a different website with a larger audience. (That’s how people found it and posted it here, so don’t you dare question the value of republishing something.) I assume that NPR asked the author for permission to republish. Why are HN readers trying so hard to be assholes about stuff like this?

so don’t you dare question...XYZ

-- This is not really needed. the tone is ~petulant.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#180

Post by vec » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 6:31 PM UTC

clarky07 wrote: post #175

nvarsj wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead we have a system that systematically disadvantages non black people. This is patently false. If you're white, you're at a huge advantage from birth. It's trivial to find data supporting this.

I'm not saying in general, I'm talking specifically about AA. With affirmative action and applying to something like grad school, a minority that is "qualified" can and will get a spot over a non-minority, that is "slightly more qualified." In general, averaging across all of America, I'm certain it's an advantage to be white. I'm also certain it's an advantage to grow up to rich parents. I'm also certain it's an adv…

Yes, but the absolutely most qualified person for a whole bunch of things is disproportionately often white and male. And even if we as a society wake up tomorrow magically not racist or sexist at all, that will be the case for the foreseeable future simply because white men have disproportionate amounts of money and connections.

Hiring through AA is _intentionally_ suboptimal. The whole point is to give members of disadvantaged communities access to opportunities they are less qualified for in the hope that they, and by extensions their communities, will over time become _less_ _disadvantaged_.

There are more important things in this universe than efficiency.