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Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

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Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#161

Post by [deleted] »

bdunbar wrote: post #153
_delirium wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the person making a very strong causal claim the one in need of evidence? If someone's claiming that affirmative action caused black poverty, then I would expect some good data to back up that claim. Merely asserting it is not an "argument".

Why not put it back on the poster who asserted without evidence that affirmative action will cure "gang violence, intense poverty, substance abuse, neglect, and trauma"? I will allow that it could. But we've had this deal in place for fifty years. If you've got a program running, and the problems keep getting worse .. maybe it's time to check one's assumptions. At any rate - I'll go grubbing around for the facts. Lat…

[deleted]

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#164

Post by ta12121 »

ajross wrote: post #131
MordinSolus wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AA doesn't correct for immediate need, it corrects for the fact that people growing up in unpriviledged environments lack advantages. So poor white folks never grow up in unpriviledged environments? You're providing no justification for why AA is race based instead of socio-economic based.

The first sentence is just bad statistics. Obviously all that's required is that "more" poor black kids grow up in unpriviledged environemnts (something that I assume you agree with) to have a problem worth correcting. You can't disprove a correlation with a single counterexample. And why must I "justify" that it be "race based"? There's a problem. It's a solution. It works, if imperfectly. I'd like to see a better o…

You must justify it because you are advocating for race based discrimination.

We have already proposed an alternative: economics based discrimination. It is better because it captures the group of people that deserve help more accurately.

We are not whining, we are having a discussion.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#165

Post by numo16 »

rabid_fish wrote: post #54
brudgers wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iowa is where Obama upset the presumptive nominee, Hillary Clinton four years ago. It is overwhelmingly made up of a constituencies which tend to vote Republican. Not only did he win the caucuses, he flipped the state in the general election and carried it by a substantial margin in his reelection. If you ever go to Iowa, you won't see many people likely to vote for Obama on the basis of racial affinity.

I can't help but reply to this thread. I grew up in L.A., came to Iowa for college and stayed. Am now in my late 30's. Was not affiliated with any party when I caucused for Obama the first go 'round. Iowa is an interesting political crossroads for the nation. We have a large percentage of the population above 65 - 15% ( http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-09.pdf ) - and still rural - 36% as of 2010 ( ht…

> We are somewhat socially liberal - gay rights are making headway here - and fiscally conservative - our state sales tax is 6%.

Based on this everything else you mentioned about Iowa, it seems like it would be a great state for third party candidates to try to upset the two party balance.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#166

Post by ta12121 »

rayiner wrote: post #110
UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with affirmative action is that it is based on race. It is racist. In fact it isn't just based on race, it is based on skin colour - since some mixed black-white people with white skin can be discriminated against. America needs to put race on the sidelines and start thinking in terms of class. You should help the disadvantaged or poor regardless of their great great grandparent's struggles. Affirmative a…

The justification and rationale for race-based affirmative action is somewhat different from anything favoring people of low socioeconomic class generally. It has to do with correcting specific and massive historical wrongs in which our government was complicit, not lifting up disadvantaged people generally. Conflating the two is a little silly. If I destroy your house, you're not going to be happy if I make amends t…

If the US government wants to atone for its immoral actions in the past it should pay reparations not institute a system of race based discrimination.

If, on the other hand, the US government wants to help disadvantaged people gain a level economic footing with the rest of the population they should use a much better predictor of disadvantage than skin color.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#167

Post by grannyg00se »

arrrg wrote: post #133
UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with affirmative action is that it is based on race. It is racist. In fact it isn't just based on race, it is based on skin colour - since some mixed black-white people with white skin can be discriminated against. America needs to put race on the sidelines and start thinking in terms of class. You should help the disadvantaged or poor regardless of their great great grandparent's struggles. Affirmative a…

No, counteracting racism (which has to happen based on race, any other way doesn't make sense) is most certainly not racist. AA is not reparations, it tries to correct for existing racism.

"...has to happen based on race..."

That is racism.

And there are other ways. You punish people who are racist and you acknowledge that as the reason for their punishment, but you help people based on their situation. If they happened to be in that situation because of previous racism, that in no way has to be taken into account in how they are treated going forward to help their current situation.

Sorry, but as soon as you use race as a means to classify another person for a decision you need to make, whether your intentions are good or not, you are being racist, and you are perpetuating the line of thought that is at the root of the problem.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#168

Post by nvarsj »

clarky07 wrote: post #145
arrrg wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about until there no longer is any significant racism that systematically disadvantages black people?

Instead we have a system that systematically disadvantages non black people. Just stop discriminating. Either way. No reason to have one or the other have an advantage. We just had a black man elected to his second term as president, so I think that's a pretty good sign we aren't that racist. This wouldn't have happened a few decades ago.

> Instead we have a system that systematically disadvantages non black people.

This is patently false. If you're white, you're at a huge advantage from birth. It's trivial to find data supporting this.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#169

Post by vertr »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #89
rayiner wrote: post #41

I think this is a great answer to people who ask why we still need things like affirmative action. Here you have a continuing demographic phenomenon that can be traced directly back to slave ownership patterns hundreds of years ago. It should be noted also that the black belt is also a terribly poor stretch of the country. Unfortunately, it appears that socioeconomic patterns are imprinted more deeply than anyone wou…

The problem with affirmative action is that it is based on race. It is racist. In fact it isn't just based on race, it is based on skin colour - since some mixed black-white people with white skin can be discriminated against. America needs to put race on the sidelines and start thinking in terms of class. You should help the disadvantaged or poor regardless of their great great grandparent's struggles. Affirmative a…

It is not racist. It would be racist if it argued or presented itself in such a way to express that one race was inferior or superior. It does not.

Re: Obama's Secret Weapon In The South is 129 Million Years Old

#170

Post by [deleted] »

Karunamon wrote: post #66
gadders wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't it the Republican party that ended slavery, and the Democratic party that supported it?

The Republican and Democratic parties have shifted their ideals greatly over a few centuries. The founders of the republican party would not recognize (and would likely be repulsed by) the platform and behavior of the modern Republican party. I'd wager the same is true for Democrats.

[deleted]
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