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Miasma: A tool to trap AI web scrapers in an endless poison pit

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Re: Miasma: A tool to trap AI web scrapers in an endless poison pit

#81

Post by spiderfarmer »

hollow-moe wrote: post #65
pbasista wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a dishonest analogy. In your example, there is only a limited amount of cookies available. While there is no practical limit on the amount of time a certain digital media can be viewed. You are allowed to take one cookie. But you are allowed to view a public website multiple times if you so want.

There sure is a limit in the load that the server you're DDoSing can take or the will for people to post new worthy content in public. The supply is limited just not at the first degree. Let's make a small edit: Are you allowed to take all the cookies and then sell them with a small ribbon with your name on it ?

Their is no arguing with pirates. They’ll take what’s yours and forget about you while you tend to the ashes.

Re: Miasma: A tool to trap AI web scrapers in an endless poison pit

#82

Post by gruez »

coldpie wrote: post #73
tasuki wrote: post #28

> If you have a public website, they are already stealing your work. I have a public website, and web scrapers are stealing my work. I just stole this article, and you are stealing my comment. Thieves, thieves, and nothing but thieves!

I agree theft isn't a good analogy, but there is something similar going on. I put my words out into the world as a form of sharing. I enjoy reading things others write and share freely, so I write so others might enjoy the things I write. But now the things I write and share freely are being used to put money in the bank accounts of the worst people on the planet. They are using my work in a way I don't want it to b…

>but there is something similar going on [...]

No, what you're basically describing is "I shared something but then I didn't like how it ended up being used". If you put stuff out in public for anyone to use, then find out it's used in a way you don't like, it's your right to stop sharing, but it's not "similar" to stealing beyond "I hate stealing"

Re: Miasma: A tool to trap AI web scrapers in an endless poison pit

#84

Post by gruez »

bengale wrote: post #67
spiderfarmer wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone hands out cookies in the supermarket, are you allowed to grab everything and leave?

It’s interesting to see twists on the old anti-piracy arguments recycled for anti-ai.

Turns out many (most?) people on the internet were never anti-copyright in the first place. They were just anti-copyright (or at least, refused to challenge the anti-copyright people) because they wanted free movies and/or hated corporations.

Re: Miasma: A tool to trap AI web scrapers in an endless poison pit

#85

Post by ninjagoo »

johneth wrote: post #43
aldousd666 wrote: post #35

This is ultimately just going to give them training material for how to avoid this crap. They'll have to up their game to get good code. The arms race just took another step, and if you're spending money creating or hosting this kind of content, it's not going to make up for the money you're losing by your other content getting scraped. The bottom has always been threatening to fall out of the ads paid for eyeballs,…

> This is ultimately just going to give them training material for how to avoid this crap. > The arms race just took another step, and if you're spending money creating or hosting this kind of content, it's not going to make up for the money you're losing by your other content getting scraped. So we should all just do nothing and accept the inevitable?

> So we should all just do nothing and accept the inevitable?

I daresay rate-limiting will result in better outcomes than well-poisoning with hidden links that are against the policies of search engines.

Lots of potential for collateral damage, including your own websites' reputations and search visibility, with the well-poisoning approach.

Re: Miasma: A tool to trap AI web scrapers in an endless poison pit

#86

Post by AyyEye »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #52
arbol wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The AI companies are using virtually unlimited "clean" residential IPs so this is not a valid strategy.

How? They run their scraping and training infrastructure - and models themselves - from within those “AI datacenters”[1] we hear about in the news - and not proxying through end-users’ own pipes. [1]: in quotes, because I dislike the term, because it’s immaterial whether or not an ugly block of concrete out in the sticks is housing LLM hardware - or good ol’ fashioned colo racks.

Residential proxy networks.

Re: Miasma: A tool to trap AI web scrapers in an endless poison pit

#87

Post by trinsic2 »

bobosola wrote: post #72

I dunno... it feels like the same approach as those people who tell you gleeful stories of how they kept a phone spammer on a call for 45 minutes: "That'll teach 'em, ha ha!" Do these types of techniques really work? I’m not convinced. Also, inserting hidden or misleading links is specifically a no-no for Google Search [0], who have this to say: We detect policy-violating practices both through automated systems and,…

>I dunno... it feels like the same approach as those people who tell you gleeful stories of how they kept a phone spammer on a call for 45 minutes: "That'll teach 'em, ha ha!" Do these types of techniques really work? I’m not convinced

If you are automating it, I don't see why not. Kitboga, a you-tuber kept scam callers in AI call-center loops tying up there resources so they cant use them on unsuspecting victims.[0]

That's a guerilla tactic, similar in warfare, when you steal resources from an enemy, you get stronger and they get weaker, its pretty effective.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDpo_o7dR8c

Re: Miasma: A tool to trap AI web scrapers in an endless poison pit

#88

Post by GeoAtreides »

drfloyd51 wrote: post #44
spiderfarmer wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone hands out cookies in the supermarket, are you allowed to grab everything and leave?

Odd thing about cookies… they disappear after one serving. Websites are an endless stream of cookies. The analogy doesn’t hold.

how about this analogy: I created a most tasty cookie recipe. I give it out for free, and all copies have my name because I am vain person who likes to be known far and wide as the best baking chef ever. Is it ok to get the recipe, remove my name, and write in LLM-Codex as the creator? again, i'm ok with giving the recipe for free, i just want my name out there.

Re: Miasma: A tool to trap AI web scrapers in an endless poison pit

#89

Post by Hendrikto »

gruez wrote: post #82
coldpie wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree theft isn't a good analogy, but there is something similar going on. I put my words out into the world as a form of sharing. I enjoy reading things others write and share freely, so I write so others might enjoy the things I write. But now the things I write and share freely are being used to put money in the bank accounts of the worst people on the planet. They are using my work in a way I don't want it to b…

>but there is something similar going on [...] No, what you're basically describing is "I shared something but then I didn't like how it ended up being used". If you put stuff out in public for anyone to use, then find out it's used in a way you don't like, it's your right to stop sharing, but it's not "similar" to stealing beyond "I hate stealing"

> If you put stuff out in public for anyone to use, then find out it's used in a way you don't like

Nope. Copyright is a thing, licenses are a thing. Both are completely ignored by LLM companies, which was already proven in court, and for which they already had to pay billions in fines.

Just because something is publicly accessible, that does not mean everybody is entitled to abuse it for everything they see fit.

Re: Miasma: A tool to trap AI web scrapers in an endless poison pit

#90

Post by gruez »

Hendrikto wrote: post #89
gruez wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but there is something similar going on [...] No, what you're basically describing is "I shared something but then I didn't like how it ended up being used". If you put stuff out in public for anyone to use, then find out it's used in a way you don't like, it's your right to stop sharing, but it's not "similar" to stealing beyond "I hate stealing"

> If you put stuff out in public for anyone to use, then find out it's used in a way you don't like Nope. Copyright is a thing, licenses are a thing. Both are completely ignored by LLM companies, which was already proven in court, and for which they already had to pay billions in fines. Just because something is publicly accessible, that does not mean everybody is entitled to abuse it for everything they see fit.

>Nope. Copyright is a thing, licenses are a thing. Both are completely ignored by LLM companies, which was already proven in court,

...the same courts that ruled that AI training is probably fair use? Fair use trumps whatever restrictions author puts on their "licenses". If you're an author and it turned out that your book was pirated by AI companies then fair enough, but "I put my words out into the world as a form of sharing" strongly implied that's not what was happening, eg. it was a blog on the open internet or something.

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