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Solar is winning the energy race

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Re: Solar is winning the energy race

#61

Post by hnmullany »

didgetmaster wrote: post #54

I am confused. The article claims that solar is the best, cheapest source of power. It also claims that the Trump administration is undermining it in the US by cutting federal subsidies. If solar truly is the cheapest, why does it need any help from any government? It would seem to me that it should flourish in any capitalist society where money naturally flows towards the cheapest solution that actually works.

Solar still makes sense economically in the US without explicit subsidies - that's why it is still getting built.

But the Trump admin is also with-holding permits and cancelling long distance transmission that would allow it to reach non-local markets. The fossil fuel industry is also sponsoring astro-turf campaigns on the local level to ban new deployments.

Re: Solar is winning the energy race

#62

Post by embedding-shape »

arjonagelhout wrote: post #35
kwakubiney wrote: post #31

Might be a noob question, but why can't EVs have solar panels on them directly so they can get charged just by moving around? Or why can't we have SVs(Solar Vehicles)? Why do we have to use solar panels on EV stations rather than just having them on the vehicles themselves?

There was a production car planned called the Lightyear One [0], originating from a Dutch student team, but if I recall correctly it was quite difficult and expensive to manufacture. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightyear_0

> but if I recall correctly it was quite difficult and expensive to manufacture

More importantly, seems they stopped manufacture it because they made a new version, that was supposed to be available in 2025, but I don't think I've seen it anywhere.

> However, in January 2023 Lightyear announced that it was halting production of the 0 model, redirecting their efforts towards production of Lightyear 2; Atlas Technologies B.V., the subsidiary responsible for the manufacture of the Lightyear 0, would be allowed to go bankrupt. As of 2023, the replacement, Lightyear 2, is slated to be US$40,000 and available in both Europe and North America, and to start production in 2025.

Re: Solar is winning the energy race

#63

Post by defrost »

didgetmaster wrote: post #54

I am confused. The article claims that solar is the best, cheapest source of power. It also claims that the Trump administration is undermining it in the US by cutting federal subsidies. If solar truly is the cheapest, why does it need any help from any government? It would seem to me that it should flourish in any capitalist society where money naturally flows towards the cheapest solution that actually works.

The USofA is a broligarchy not a capitalist society, so there's that.

Trump has his thumb on the scales, cancelling wind farms in progress via executive order, not cancelling the federal subsidies for fossil fuels, etc.

There are always transition overheads to breach - in China the government there subsidised the non existant EV industry into being, now that's going gang busters the government support has dropped back to near zero.

Re: Solar is winning the energy race

#64

Post by kaibee »

cbmuser wrote: post #11
metalman wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live off grid, right on the 45'th parallel, and experience 4 full seasons. The solar array and battery bank I have is built from self sourced miss matched panels, and used batteries, it provides power for my house and a significant portion of my business (welding power is from an engine driven welder). In 10 years it has not just amortised it's costs, it has made me money, and qualifies as a tax right off. My up ti…

»In 10 years it has not just amortised it's costs, it has made me money, and qualifies as a tax right off.« Great, so basically the tax payer is subsidizing your energy consumption. Sounds like a fair system.

> Great, so basically the tax payer is subsidizing your energy consumption.

> Sounds like a fair system.

Yes, people voted for tax credits for solar/renewables. It is a fair system. You know what isn't a fair system? Fossil fuel externalities causing childhood asthma and rising sea levels requiring rebuilding coastal infrastructure globally.

Re: Solar is winning the energy race

#65

Post by Jedd »

snowchaser wrote: post #40
kwakubiney wrote: post #31

Might be a noob question, but why can't EVs have solar panels on them directly so they can get charged just by moving around? Or why can't we have SVs(Solar Vehicles)? Why do we have to use solar panels on EV stations rather than just having them on the vehicles themselves?

It’s a good question, but the reality is the energy required to power a car is far larger than what you can collect. The solar energy you can collect is about 750W/sq meter. A car roof is about 5’x5’, and if we are generous and include a trunk and hood area, maybe you are getting 60 sqft? Best case if the sun is right over the car you can illuminate about 5 square meters. That’s about 3.75KW. To convert that to a mor…

> The solar energy you can collect is about 750W/sq meter.

> A car roof is about 5’x5’, and if we are generous and include a trunk and hood area, maybe you are getting 60 sqft?

We must think metric, every inch of the way!

Anyway, PVCs currently max out at about 300W / square metre - and that's in ideal conditions.

I believe theoretical maximum energy per square metre (when light actually arrives at the planet surface) is conveniently pretty close to 1000W, assuming you're in the right place, but maximum efficiency of contemporary panels is only about 30%.

Re: Solar is winning the energy race

#66

Post by hnmullany »

red75prime wrote: post #23
defrost wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: Researchers at the Lappeenranta-Lahti University of Technology in Finland have worked out what a globally cost-effective energy supply could look like. Based on their model, 76% of the world's energy would come from solar. Wind power would make up an additional 20%, with the rest coming from hydro, biomass and geothermal energy.

The heat and electricity energy storage need to grow to 46000 TWh [1]. The current value is about 10 TWh. [1] https://uk.eragroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Global_sy...

Just a note that 46,000 is a 2050 target - which covers current demand AND all the growth in electricity and heat demand over the next 25 years.

Re: Solar is winning the energy race

#67

Post by pydry »

b00ty4breakfast wrote: post #42
tiku wrote: post #8

[flagged]

We've already got pumped-hydro storage infrastructure and battery tech, while certainly not as far along as the boosters circa the middle of the last decade promised us, is at a point where it's viable as one part of the puzzle. Speaking of the larger picture, this is to say nothing of all the other renewable options out there that continue to work when the sun goes down. EDIT: And it doesn't speak at all to the othe…

The last ~4% or so when the sun isnt shining, the wind isnt blowing, the batteries and pumped storage are depleted can be supplied via power2gas.

Unlike pumped storage and batteries, Power2gas has poor round trip efficiency (40%) but unlike them gas is a very cost effective way to store large amounts of energy for long periods of time.

The ironic thing is that even if we produced all our power in this inefficient way and not just 4% it would still be a bit cheaper than nuclear power.

Until natural gas extraction is taxed or banned, though, power2gas probably wont be cost effective. Natural gas is too cheap even with all the wars.

Re: Solar is winning the energy race

#68

Post by hnmullany »

broken-kebab wrote: post #53
metalman wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live off grid, right on the 45'th parallel, and experience 4 full seasons. The solar array and battery bank I have is built from self sourced miss matched panels, and used batteries, it provides power for my house and a significant portion of my business (welding power is from an engine driven welder). In 10 years it has not just amortised it's costs, it has made me money, and qualifies as a tax right off. My up ti…

I have my quite positive experience with solar too. But "90% population" claim is unrealistic. For starters, solar needs batteries to be truly effective. Batteries need rare-earth metals which is a narrow bottleneck. It's fine to buy 4 batteris for yourself but procuring a million will raise prices and probably break backs of many projects. A trillion, and you probably igniting wars for resources. Also we can't multi…

Battery chemistries for grid storage are moving toward commodity elements and rapidly reducing reliance on rare earths. Sodium and Iron/Air batteries can take over fairly easily.

Re: Solar is winning the energy race

#69

Post by bmitch3020 »

I really appreciate the Technology Connections take on renewable energy from solar and batteries including a recyclable component. With fossil fuels, the power plant has to be built, and then the fuel is constantly shipped in, which requires constant extraction. While solar panels and batteries can not only consume their fuel for effectively free, but at the end of their life, the materials in them can be recycled without needing massive mines for fresh glass, aluminum, lithium, silicon, etc.

Re: Solar is winning the energy race

#70

Post by foragerdev »

torginus wrote: post #51
foragerdev wrote: post #10

Solar is not less than revolution in Pakistan. Almost every home and factory has solar installed on their roofs. More affluent houses have almost gone off grid; others are selling back to grid and others who can't afford has their own small scale 12V solar panels to run fans in the scorching summer of Pakistan to save electricity bills. It is all done by people independently without much support from the government a…

It is genuninely insane (in a good way!) I've encountered some degree of apprehension and disbelief from people in Western countries when I told them, that countries considered poor and backwards often are further along in the transition to renewables, and even for the everyman, installing solar and having (a usually Chinese) EV just makes sense - economically, and not only in terms of saving the planet. The markup o…

Yes, that's drive me insane, west which is biggest advocator of climate change and preaches renewable energy has not done as much as a poor country like Pakistan has done.

And Pakistan is the one who is affected the most by the climate change. From September to February Pakistan AQI is basically unbreathable. Rain pattern is disturbed, winter has become shorter and summer has become longer, basically there is no spring or autumn, either it's summer or winter.

EU has to do more and make it easier for them to install solar panels.

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