Washington voters approve legalized marijuana • Hacker News Board

Re: Washington voters approve legalized marijuana

#111

Post by trhtrsh » Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 11:18 PM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #101

sethrin wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is "individual sovereignty"? Rights are granted not by God, not by some internal edict. They come from the society you inhabit. The world of sovereign individuals is wonderful in objectivist fantasies. In reality, it results in anarchy, for a brief moment before one strongman clubs another over the head, and two other people decide to team up against their neighbors. Even casting aside the concept of civilizatio…

They don't come from the society - otherwise there's nothing wrong with slavery, if only society condones it. If you want to claim the society is wrong and slavery is bad, you need to find some reason why. If the reason of "I don't like it" does not sound convincing to you, you'd have to find some principles that lie beyond the customs of the society. It doesn't have to be God's will, but it has to be something. Soci…

Society is a collection of individuals, including many who opposed slavery (not all of whom were slaves).

It's turtles all the way down.

Re: Washington voters approve legalized marijuana

#112

Post by king_jester » Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 11:29 PM UTC

speleding wrote: post #102

king_jester wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Marijuana use will probably at least double as a result of this bill. Unfortunately, this has a real cost to society. There's not a lot of quality data on the health effects of regular pot use, but what I've read says it's something of a mix of the effects of alcoholism and cigarette addiction. This is going to have a real dollar cost to the state unless we can fix our healthcare system before people who start taki…

> Cannabis does not have a physical addiction characteristic The evidence for a link between Cannabis and increased risk of psychosis is increasing [1]. A patient with psychosis rarely recovers and is extremely costly to society over his lifetime (as well as a personal tragedy, of course). I'm in favour of legalisation but it is something to take into account. [1] http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/schizophrenia/content…

I've seen the study regarding cannabis use and psychosis and it is interesting, but I just want to clarify that I meant there is no physical dependency mechanism for cannabis compared to other classes of drugs such as opioids.

Re: Washington voters approve legalized marijuana

#113

Post by trhtrsh » Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 11:33 PM UTC

marcos123 wrote: post #55

pixie_ wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? How do you know, 'it hasn't stopped them.' How do you count the number of people who never got addicted to meth because it wasn't on sale at 7-11, or was never made the secret ingredient in McDonald's new meth burger. Do you know that without rules, there really are no rules, and the examples I just gave are the tip of a scary iceberg. Do you know what worse is? You have no idea.

It's funny how humans tend to fully forget about things that happened only 100 years prior. Back in the late 1800's and early 1900's, some 50% of the American population was addicted to opiates in one form or another, usually without even realizing it (due to there being no failed drug laws yet, and no laws regarding the listing of ingredients on common "elixirs"). And yet, we didn't live in some apocalyptic wastelan…

http://www.fda.gov/RegulatoryInformation/Legislation/default...

"The Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act of 1938 was passed after a legally marketed toxic elixir killed 107 people"

1908, when over-the-counter headache pills might kill you:

http://books.google.com/books?id=nssSAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA4-PA6...

Re: Washington voters approve legalized marijuana

#114

Post by smsm42 » Wed, Nov 07, 2012, 11:54 PM UTC

r00fus wrote: post #105

smsm42 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government doesn't need to be bribed, voters do. It is pretty much "if you potheads want us to not put you to jail, there should be something in it for us too". Ideally, people should not be paying bribes to be able to do something that harms nobody and is their own private business. However, in the messed up world of American politics, it is what it takes - nobody cares about your freedom, but if you sweeten the dea…

So you're saying there will be no costs in enforcing safe usage of pot? What are the societal costs of (to use alcohol analogy) driving while stoned? What about rehab? The public, through the government, effectively pays for this, and taxing the activity can alleviate or mitigate those costs.

Compared to enormous costs of the War On Drugs, the cost change would be clearly negative. It is much cheaper to ensure pot is not sold to minors, not distributed in schools, etc. - just as is done with alcohol/tobacco now - that to have dedicated police force, court system and prison system prosecuting marijuana users.

Societal costs of DUI would not change much - people that are careless enough to DUI would DUI anyway, and legal pot does not add much to it - whoever needs pot, knows where to get it even illegally, and obviously if he doesn't care about the law while DUI, he wouldn't also care about the law before, while consuming. So while a minor rise in DUI is possible since people that smoked in home because they were afraid to be arrested may now smoke outside and then drive, I think it won't be very significant. Most people know how to be responsible.

Rehab costs would rise since more people which have dependency problem would turn to rehab now that they aren't branded criminals anymore, but I think it is a good thing, and the cost will be completely covered by the reduction of costs in policing, courts and prisons. Especially that marijuana is a relatively lightly-addictive drug, so rehab would not be as costly as for heavier substances.

Re: Washington voters approve legalized marijuana

#115

Post by illuminate » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 12:03 AM UTC

trhtrsh wrote: post #107

Firehed wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people don't care either way, they should be swayed by the massive cost savings by significantly reducing the scope of the war on drugs and the associated legal and penitentiary costs. I'm not opposed to taxing it like alcohol or perhaps cigarettes (especially as a non-user) but 25% seems a bit crazy. Of course it may still end up cheaper to buyers. But if that's the cost of progress, fine. Two steps forward and o…

Note that state law has no effect on the War on Drugs, which is a Federal effort. The feds have still been harassing marijuana growers/users that are in no violation of state or local law.

"Note that state law has no effect on the War on Drugs"

In reality, this is not correct. More and more states enacting these initiatives will have a direct effect on the War on Drugs.

Re: Washington voters approve legalized marijuana

#116

Post by illuminate » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 12:04 AM UTC

speleding wrote: post #102

king_jester wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Marijuana use will probably at least double as a result of this bill. Unfortunately, this has a real cost to society. There's not a lot of quality data on the health effects of regular pot use, but what I've read says it's something of a mix of the effects of alcoholism and cigarette addiction. This is going to have a real dollar cost to the state unless we can fix our healthcare system before people who start taki…

> Cannabis does not have a physical addiction characteristic The evidence for a link between Cannabis and increased risk of psychosis is increasing [1]. A patient with psychosis rarely recovers and is extremely costly to society over his lifetime (as well as a personal tragedy, of course). I'm in favour of legalisation but it is something to take into account. [1] http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/schizophrenia/content…

"The evidence for a link between Cannabis and increased risk of psychosis is increasing"

Yes, but only to those who are already disposed.

Re: Washington voters approve legalized marijuana

#117

Post by illuminate » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 12:07 AM UTC

beatgammit wrote: post #95

blackhole wrote: post #2

Provided we also legalize same-sex marriage, this voting cycle will make me proud to be a Washington native.

Meh, not too happy about the same-sex marriage decision, but I do appreciate that this decision is being made at the state level instead of the national level. I too am proud to be a Washington native in this election, but mostly because of the public charter school system. Being a fiscal conservative, the national election, however, did not go as I had hoped. Seeing stocks drop like that was not the best news to wak…

"not too happy about the same-sex marriage decision ... Being a fiscal conservative"

Not to argue with your beliefs, but why call yourself a "fiscal conservative" if you're also a social conservative?

Generally people make the distinction only in the case that they do not apply religious mores to politics.

Re: Washington voters approve legalized marijuana

#118

Post by smsm42 » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 12:14 AM UTC

pixie_ wrote: post #24

TruthElixirX wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has banning people from shooting meth into the webbing of their fingers stopped them? No. It has only made things worse. 100% legalization for all substances.

Really? How do you know, 'it hasn't stopped them.' How do you count the number of people who never got addicted to meth because it wasn't on sale at 7-11, or was never made the secret ingredient in McDonald's new meth burger. Do you know that without rules, there really are no rules, and the examples I just gave are the tip of a scary iceberg. Do you know what worse is? You have no idea.

This iceberg exists only in your head. The fact is that there's no McDonalds alcohol burger, and no McDonalds tobacco burger, and both alcohol and tobacco are legal. Other highly addictive substances - barbiturates, diazepam, etc. - are legal too, even though require prescriptions, but are highly available. No scary McDonalds burgers though. All this data - both on addictiveness and on availability - is widely and easily available. Try to think for yourself instead of parroting propaganda. It's harder, but it's more fun.

Re: Washington voters approve legalized marijuana

#119

Post by illuminate » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 12:15 AM UTC

timfrietas wrote: post #82

numbsafari wrote: post #13

This'll take a lot of pressure off of people in Redmond...

How so? You can still fail a drug test for weed, same as you can for alcohol, and employers like MS can still fire you.

Tech companies in the PNW do not drug test, generally.

Re: Washington voters approve legalized marijuana

#120

Post by smsm42 » Thu, Nov 08, 2012, 12:18 AM UTC

trhtrsh wrote: post #106

smsm42 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't mean the tax is low. Cabbage is grown like cabbage, and it doesn't have 25% tax on it. And what is 500% tax? You pay 4x your revenue for the right to grow marijuana? It's not a tax then, it's prohibitive fine.

500% tax is isn't 4x revenue. Either the consumer pays the tax, so its 4x the product cost, or the vendor pays it, and prices the tax into the sale price, so the tax us 83% of revenue. Take an example: water costs 2cents/gallon. a 500% tax would make water 10cents a gallon. That would be enough to promote agressive conservation, but not prohibitively expensive. Soda costs $1/pint, for 500% markup. Yet it's not prohib…

I don't know how much you pay for water in your house, but I know how much I pay. 5x increase would be very substantive expense for me, coming very close to "prohibitively expensive".