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AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

theguardian.com

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Re: AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

#121

Post by jvanderbot »

dbt00 wrote: post #69
jvanderbot wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recommend looking closely at the New York Times analysis. There were factors that might have mitigated this as a strike target, but it also really did look like a part of the compound (and it originally was!). Yes, with hindsight, we can definitively know, and with sufficient time each target could probably have been positively ID'd, but there was precisely one mis-strike in 1000s of sorties, so this already is a l…

How many American schoolchildren have Iran killed in the last 25 years? How many Iranian schoolchildren have America killed? Where's your moral justification for this war of choice if "oops, 137 dead kids is a normal expected outcome"?

Please ask yourself if there is true evil in the world. People who are willing to kill children on purpose, or maim them, or burn them with acid, or commit other bad things I wont get into.

Then ask yourself if bad things can happen despite good intents. Truly horrible things, in fact, despite effort to prevent them.

Then, ask if this bombing was part of group A or group B.

And ask if we were trying to target people from group A or group B.

This is not an "ends justify the means" argument, I hope. But if you want to count bodies as some kind of justification for or against war because apparently morals can be reduced to addition and subtraction, you might as well at least classify the dead and causes correctly.

Re: AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

#122

Post by Forgeties79 »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #112
Forgeties79 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Accidentally killing a bunch of kids would likely be worth it, morally speaking, if it led to the destruction of the Iranian regime. It most absolutely is not and I struggle to believe you can build a valid argument that links bombing school children as necessary for the fall of Iran’s government. How you win a war, especially one as lopsided as this invasion is, is as important as winning. I cannot so easily sleep…

1. This isnt an invasion, just a bombing campaign. 2. Of course it would be better to not kill any kids, but thats just not how war works. Mistakes will be made, that doesnt mean eliminating the number one funder of terror in the world isnt worth it. Even if the next regime hates the US/israel just as much they will likely spend much less supporting terror groups because they know theyll just get bombed again. 3. Of…

We literally just deployed 5000 troops to Iran after weeks of bombing. We are boots on the ground and our belligerent president literally calls it a war. It is disingenuous to bicker over whether we can call our attack an invasion. If it was happening to us we certainly would call it one.

Hand wavy “that’s war for ya” nonsense isn’t appropriate for a serious discussion of ethics. Especially when discussing bombing a school.

Re: AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

#123

Post by Forgeties79 »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #120
cramsession wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US/Israel are far and away the number one terrorist organization in the world, and it's not even close.

Which is why I said I dont think it would be immoral for Iran to launch a bunch of rockets at the US or israel to force regime changes.

But they can’t and don’t lob missiles at the US so to act as if they are is ridiculous. This is not a fight between equal weight classes.

Re: AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

#124

Post by cool_dude85 »

YZF wrote: post #113
megous wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Missing the forest for the trees, are you? Wars of aggression are against UN rules, and US is in the wrong regardless of what it hit. Feels like we're talking here about whether rapist should have known that the rapee was a child or an adult, and they had a good reason to believe it was an adult person (there was mother of the girl standing next to it, so, hard to distinguish...), so yeah, obviously a tragedy they ra…

Iran has been waging war since the Islamic Revolution and the US claims that there was a threat of attack on US bases and US interests and therefore the attack was in self defense. The body that decides is the UNSC and given the US has veto powers it's not going to obviously declare the US attack illegal. From Israel's perspective there's an even stronger self defense argument given the amount of missiles aimed at Is…

>Iran has been waging war since the Islamic Revolution

On who?

Re: AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

#125

Post by thrawa8387336 »

glouwbug wrote: post #33
machinecontrol wrote: post #10

Interesting article. Seems like AI-washing isn't just for layoffs anymore.

What AI does best is remove accountability and ownership

Makes one think why Mckinsey et. al. are doing poorly ;)

Re: AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

#126

Post by gruez »

kakacik wrote: post #110
gruez wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels like moving the goalposts. The OP and the preceding comments are pretty clearly talking about the targeting mistake aspect of this incident, not the war itself. You're moving the discussion from the former to the latter to it easier to argue that US is in the wrong, but if the argument is that the war was unjust to begin with, then do you really need a school getting bombed to push you over the edge? After…

No, I am fine with parent's take. We treat children as absolutely innocent (which they are, regardless of the way anybody tries to spin this or ie Gaza), and killing children is extra heinous crime compared to killing adult, same with rape etc. Children rapist get extra special treatment in jails, often from other murderers and society is largely fine with that. As a parent, even when cutting off most of the emotions…

>I am unfazed and unconvinced by such, even if well meaning whataboutism.

No, it's not whataboutism, it's moving the goalposts. Consider the following exchange:

Alice: "McDonalds mistreats its workers by paying them below the minimum wage"

Bob: "No they don't. They all get paid at or above the local minimum wage"

Charlie: "Well that doesn't matter, because McDonald's still mistreats its workers because it's a capitalist institution, which by definition means they're siphoning the fruits of the worker's labor"

Even if you agree with Charlie's point, at the very least it's in poor taste to bring it up in a conversation specifically talking about the minimum wage. Otherwise every discussion about some aspect of [thing] just turns into a plebiscite about [thing].

Re: AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

#127

Post by jvanderbot »

yabutlivnWoods wrote: post #88
jvanderbot wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recommend looking closely at the New York Times analysis. There were factors that might have mitigated this as a strike target, but it also really did look like a part of the compound (and it originally was!). Yes, with hindsight, we can definitively know, and with sufficient time each target could probably have been positively ID'd, but there was precisely one mis-strike in 1000s of sorties, so this already is a l…

Wouldn't have been looking for targets if senile old fucks looking to deflect from their personal liabilities hadn't started shooting. AI didn't do shit here. Stupid people built the AI and the weapons and applied them. Any other argument is intentional obfuscation. You all are falling for propaganda.

That is actually the point of the article, if you had read it

Re: AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

#128

Post by thrawa8387336 »

ck2 wrote: post #14

You know how that was done with a Tomahawk They've now burnt though almost ONE THOUSAND of those They cost $4 million each, so that's another $4 BILLION that has to be replaced too Imagine several more months of that or even through 2029

I think more than one. One and then another 1 hour after

Re: AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

#129

Post by bdangubic »

jvanderbot wrote: post #121
dbt00 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many American schoolchildren have Iran killed in the last 25 years? How many Iranian schoolchildren have America killed? Where's your moral justification for this war of choice if "oops, 137 dead kids is a normal expected outcome"?

Please ask yourself if there is true evil in the world. People who are willing to kill children on purpose , or maim them, or burn them with acid, or commit other bad things I wont get into. Then ask yourself if bad things can happen despite good intents. Truly horrible things, in fact, despite effort to prevent them. Then, ask if this bombing was part of group A or group B. And ask if we were trying to target people…

We (US) are definitely in Group A. We killed and are continuing to kill more innocent people (including children) than everyone else combined but are always hiding under “oh, we really good guys here, just shit happens while we are bombing around the world for decades for no particular reason until we eventually lose and leave”)

Re: AI got the blame for the Iran school bombing. The truth is more worrying

#130

Post by WarmWash »

yosamino wrote: post #95
WarmWash wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like an intellectual god to have been gifted the brain power to recognize that 150 kids being killed is a awful tragedy, and that converting a building on a military base to a school is recklessly stupid and borderline purposely done as a trap. It's like letting your child play in the road at night, and then being upset when a drunk driver hits them. Anyone can look at the satellite images from the bombing and…

I'm just gonna assume you are an American, just because this is a website who's audience is in large part American. But I might be wrong. Anyway, as such you must at least in passing be familiar with the concept of a "military base" as it is practiced by American society. > Everything that the average family needs is there; a grocery store, shopping mall, bank, post office, theatre, religious centers, outdoor activit…

Yes, you are correct. Military bases even have schools and kids!

But do you know what else the US does?

The locations of military and non-military buildings is public information, and even intentionally made obvious to anyone. You can get maps of the bases from their websites. You can even go on google maps and see what most of the buildings are. To avoid exactly this situation. And even beyond all that, in the event of military escalation where their is real threat of the bases being hit, the civilians would be evacuated anyway.

(Legitimate) countries at war aren't trying to massacre civilians. They all agreed to that and all take agreed upon steps to stop it. Like at the most basic level issuing uniforms to soldiers so you can clearly see who is a civilian and who is a fighter.

I can assure you that in a war between the US and China, there would be dramatically fewer civilian deaths, because both countries don't fuck around with "military/civilian ambiguity" as a war tactic. Because you or your enemy end up killing a bunch of innocents.

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