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Walk me through how you think this is going to be enforced? Athletes will need to start dropping their pants? Disgusting invasion of privacy.
Well the article says a cheek swab or blood test.
Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events
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Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events
#202[flagged]
Walk me through how you think this is going to be enforced? Athletes will need to start dropping their pants? Disgusting invasion of privacy.
The article addresses that. Given all the testing already, this is a trivial addition:
“Under the new policy eligibility will be determined by a one-time gene test, according to the I.O.C. The test, which is already being used in track and field, requires screening via saliva, a cheek swab or a blood sample.“
Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I asked because I'm curious, and Googling just gives opinion pieces and not data. Women complaining are voicing an opinion. Is this a good enough citation for the claim that women don't want to compete with men? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gndSDgsMnKI
Considering I was asking whether there was evidence on trans-performance, sure it matters a little. That's fine if they don't want to compete with men, but the statements were because "it's unfair". I was curious if there had been any studies on this.
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Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events
#204Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events
#205Earlier quoted context omitted.
Certainly some of the high profile cases have been fairly absurd. A mid-tier male athletic transitions, and then blows the female record out of the water and gets gold. What I don't know is whether there are wider stats rather than some really big notable cases. It wouldn't surprise me, I just don't have the facts at the moment.
> A mid-tier male athletic transitions, and then blows the female record out of the water and gets gold. Do you have an example of this happening?
Lia Thomas.
Why are all these innocent questioners asking for more evidence not familiar with the existence of the evidence they are asking for?
Considering they feel so strongly about it, they should already have seen all this.
Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events
#206Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The problem for this argument is that there is no actual data that trans kids and specifically trans girls are any better at sport than other girls. There is considerable evidence that they aren't. But that's not really relevant, because you have to remember segregation in sport has never been about competitive fairness , it has always been about allowing those who are socially superior to avoid the embarrassment o…
There is considerable evidence that they aren't. Why did Lia Thomas go from being nowhere near winning in the male division to getting fifth in the women's? When competitive fairness is raised as an argument for segregation, it is pretextual If sports were not sex-segregated, most events would never be won by a woman. How is that a pretext?
Fifth is still nowhere near winning. So she went from nowhere near winning to nowhere near winning.
Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events
#207Has anyone measured trans athletes performance? I see this topic come up repeatedly in different guises, protect women from the evil trans-agenda. But I haven't seen where this is actually a problem. Do trans-athletes regularly out perform "born as" (not sure the best way to phrase it) athletes?
> Do trans-athletes regularly out perform "born as" (not sure the best way to phrase it) athletes?
The closest controlled study we have on this topic is not in athletes but in U.S. military servicemembers and their standard fitness test: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36271916/
This isn't a good study for professional athletes training for competition because the fitness test is not analogous to professional competition. They only need to pass with a reasonable score but most are not competing for the top position like in the Olympics
The study found that
> transgender females' performance showed statistically significantly better performance than cisgender females until 2 years of GAHT in run times and 4 years in sit-up scores and remained superior in push-ups at the study's 4-year endpoint.
So of the 3 simple activities they tested their performance remained higher in one test (run times) until 2 years, another test (sit-ups) until 4 years, and remained higher at the end of the limited 4-year study period in the last test (push-ups).
This study was widely circulated as "proof" that hormone therapy erases sex-based gains after only 2 years, but that's not even an accurate read of the study. It's also not measuring athletes who are training or trying to compete.
Depending on the sport, hormone therapy cannot be expected to compensate for sex some important sex differences like physical structure. Male anatomy is simply different in ways that provide different types of leverage or angles (like Q Angle, which runners will talk about, or reach, which is important to boxers)
This is a very taboo topic to discuss and honestly I'm a little nervous to even comment about it here pseudonymously. The popular culture discussion of the topic is very different than the sports science discussion of the topic, where sex differences have long been accepted to be innate and irreversible, regardless of hormone therapy.
Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events
#208Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is it fair to say that they can just compete in the men's division?
It would not be fair, because the point of having divisions is allow women to compete in a competition that is not dominated by men.
> It would not be fair, because the point of having divisions is allow women to compete in a competition that is not dominated by men.
Really, what it is is being dominated by Testosterone. Also why we ban steroid use, and many other things along the same lines.
I would suggest that most Olympians - both female and male (whatever your definition) likely have a higher than normal amount of that hormone.
Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events
#209Trans women are women. If you want to see men dressed as women, watch "This is the Army" (1943), an American wartime musical comedy film that features actor Ronald Regan, and a lot of musical numbers performed by men in drag.
If they were you wouldn't need to call them "trans"
We don’t have to, it’s outsiders who insist on it.
Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why not Human Olympics?
Why not ignore gender labels and go by chromosomal configuration? There could be XY and XX [1] olympics. And then there should be X, XYY, XXX, XXXY, XXYY, and all the other possibilities [2]. There is more complexity than the binary in the expression of sex in humans. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_differentiation_in_huma... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
All biological categories are fuzzy around the edges. Those fuzzy edges do not invalidate the category. The existence of small #'s of people with actual physical intersex conditions (not "I feel like ") in no way conflicts with humans being sexually dimorphic.