Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 960 posts

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#121

Post by happytoexplain »

puppycodes wrote: post #116
happytoexplain wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't we already sub-categorize within a gender? E.g. boxing. I don't actually know how common that is or why some sports get this treatment and not others.

Boxing is often the example given because its someone getting hurt, but when you actually break it down it also falls apart for boxing. If we measured everyones strength, bone density, etc... in order to stop people from risking injury that would be one thing But basing it on your Chromosomes is lazy and inaccurate. The point is that "fairness" being tied to whether your Cis or Trans is a hilarious hill to die on whe…

To be clear, I used that example because it was the only one I could think of, not for some rhetorical reason (which serves your point anyway, really).

I agree if we could just distill "here's your objective good-at-tennis score" for everybody and draw lines using those numbers, that makes sense. It feels unrealistic? I.e. we already don't do that - it doesn't necessarily feel like 100% an anti-trans thing (orthogonal obviously to the large amount of anti-trans sentiment that generally exists). Maybe Elo for everything?

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#122

Post by helterskelter »

LetsGetTechnicl wrote: post #106
helterskelter wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trans men don't compete because women are essentially non competitive against men in top level athletics. Which is why trans women are controversial in women's sports. Every year there are hundreds of males highschoolers who outcompete females Olympic gold medalists. By allowing men to compete in women's sports you prioritize the notions of identity of what's usually a single individual over an entire class. It's pla…

Trans women are such a minority in women's sports it's really a non-issue that's been blown out of proportion. There was one trans woman who competed in the 2020 Olympics and she didn't even place. Riley Gaines has made a big deal in MAGA world about tying for 5th with a trans woman in a swimming competition. That means 4 cis women placed ahead of her, and if Lia Thomas hadn't competed, she still would've been in 5th…

HRT still leaves you with longer limbs and larger lungs which give a serious competitive edge. The numbers of trans individuals in sports doesn't matter, it's wrong on principle. Why segregate by sex at all? Let's get rid of it, you won't see any women, or any trans women, for that matter, anywhere on any serious athletic playing field. It'll all just be men.

What's the point of allowing trans women in women's sports anyway, especially at a top level? To affirm their identity? That throws an entire class of people, women, under the bus. Top performing males have an indisputable competitive advantage against top performing females in athletics.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#123

Post by bluefirebrand »

LetsGetTechnicl wrote: post #108
briandw wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men are stronger and faster and not just a little bit. If you allow men in women's sports, (basketball, soccer, boxing etc) then women will not be competitive in those sports.

Yes but trans women on hormone replacement therapy are not as strong as cis men across the board.

Comparing them to cis men is a red herring, they aren't competing again cis men

Are they stronger than cis women?

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#124

Post by harveychess »

lewdev wrote: post #98
tdb7893 wrote: post #21

Trans women have competed as women in the Olympics once ever and have 0 medals. By the numbers it's a non issue under previous rules (despite the incredible amount of ink spilled over it). People are talking about trans women here but the vast majority of people affected by this change are women who are not trans who have a "disorder of sexual development".

Is it fair to say that they can just compete in the men's division?

It would not be fair, because the point of having divisions is allow women to compete in a competition that is not dominated by men.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#125

Post by briandw »

LetsGetTechnicl wrote: post #108
briandw wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men are stronger and faster and not just a little bit. If you allow men in women's sports, (basketball, soccer, boxing etc) then women will not be competitive in those sports.

Yes but trans women on hormone replacement therapy are not as strong as cis men across the board.

Male puberty changes body composition in non-reversible ways. Muscle distribution, composition, quantity and bone density, all favor men that have gone through puberty.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#126

Post by altruios »

back_to_reality wrote: post #87
altruios wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do understand there is a difference between a trans-woman and a man and that you are comparing incorrect data?

Please do demonstrate the difference in this context.

Hormone expression. Muscle mass. Reaction time. Weight.

A YEAR of hormone therapy. Meeting a required measured threshold of testosterone.

And that's not even the controversial stuff. A man and a trans-woman are different. hell, one has (generalizing here) boobs: come on... don't be dense/obtuse! Have you tried running fast suddenly having boobs when you did not before?!?! ...one is way easier.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#127

Post by puppycodes »

happytoexplain wrote: post #121
puppycodes wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boxing is often the example given because its someone getting hurt, but when you actually break it down it also falls apart for boxing. If we measured everyones strength, bone density, etc... in order to stop people from risking injury that would be one thing But basing it on your Chromosomes is lazy and inaccurate. The point is that "fairness" being tied to whether your Cis or Trans is a hilarious hill to die on whe…

To be clear, I used that example because it was the only one I could think of, not for some rhetorical reason (which serves your point anyway, really). I agree if we could just distill "here's your objective good-at-tennis score" for everybody and draw lines using those numbers, that makes sense. It feels unrealistic? I.e. we already don't do that - it doesn't necessarily feel like 100% an anti-trans thing (orthogona…

Yeah for sure.

My point is just that fairness in the Olympics is fake and always has been.

Someones Chromosomes are such a poor way to measure their physical abilities especially when the bar is so high for top athletes in the field.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#128

Post by altruios »

atmavatar wrote: post #61
lelanthran wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do trans-athletes regularly out perform "born as" (not sure the best way to phrase it) athletes? Regularly. It's the competing women who are complaining, though. They feel it is unfair to compete with men.

The problem is that someone who's transitioned is no longer a man. After undergoing surgery and hormone treatment for a long period of time, a trans athlete falls somewhere between men and women in terms of capability. They'd have no more success competing against men than naturally born women would, yet they still have advantages when competing against naturally born women. Unfortunately, while the most equitable so…

Is there actually an advantage? that's toted. but no one can ever point to real data about it... and all the data suggests the exact opposite... that for most cases: cis-women out-compete trans-women.

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#129

Post by dismalaf »

LetsGetTechnicl wrote: post #35

It's clear how insane this culture war against trans people is when you consider this only applies to trans women and not trans men? Also, so many of these anti-trans efforts end up hurting cis women too, the ones who happen to look too masculine or have too high of testosterone. Gender is not as straightforward as bigots and transphobes would like to think. I wonder how many cis women will be affected by this ruling…

Because trans men have no advantage in men's sport, whereas trans females do. It's not even about trans people at all, it's about preserving fairness in women's sports.

Before trans issues were widespread in culture, intersex athletes were also scrutinized. Hell, I remember when people were questioning whether having a testicle removed gave Lance Armstrong an advantage...

Re: Olympic Committee bars transgender athletes from women’s events

#130

Post by happymellon »

lelanthran wrote: post #118
happymellon wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering I was asking whether there was evidence on trans-performance, sure it matters a little. That's fine if they don't want to compete with men, but the statements were because "it's unfair". I was curious if there had been any studies on this.

> Considering I was asking whether there was evidence on trans-performance, sure it matters a little. Well, (and I hesitate to say this because of HN guidelines, but) it was in the article, which I assumed you read. It was this assumption that made me think you wanted evidence that it is women who are complaining about competing against men. FTFA > Late last year Dr. Jane Thornton, the I.O.C.’s medical and scientific…

I don't see that anywhere in the linked Yahoo article.

Does it have a link to any of the findings?

Post reply on HN