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Swift 6.3

swift.org

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Re: Swift 6.3

#111

Post by isodev »

dzonga wrote: post #13

good to see incredible stuff being shipped in Swift. Haven't used it since v3 though. around 2015-17 - Swift could have easily dethroned Python. it was simple enough - very fast - could plug into the C/C++ ecosystem. Hence all the numeric stuff people were doing in Python powered by C++ libraries could've been done with Swift. the server ecosystem was starting to come to life, even supported by IBM. I think the letdo…

> Swift has remained largely an Apple ecosystem

Even today, with the fancy Swift 6.3, the experience of using Swift for anything other than apps for Apple platforms is very painful. There is also the question of trust - I don't think anyone would voluntarily introduce Apple "The Gatekeeper" in parts of their stack unless they're forced to do it.

Re: Swift 6.3

#112

Post by mathverse »

afavour wrote: post #101
fainpul wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just need something that can compile cross-platform and maintain great performance. I think Go has already taken that part of the cake.

Go is garbage collected, though. Rust and Swift still occupy a niche Go doesn't.

ARC is a form of garbage collection. Swift does not fare better than Go usually.

Re: Swift 6.3

#113

Post by c-fe »

mark_l_watson wrote: post #57
vmsp wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. Google was even thinking of switching TensorFlow from Python to Swift. https://github.com/tensorflow/swift

I was enthusiastic about early TensorFlow in Swift efforts, sorry when the effort ended. My interest then flowed into early Mojo development for a while. I wrote an eBook on Swift several ago but rarely update that book anymore. Count me as one of the many developers who for a while thought Swift would take over the world. At least Swift is a fun language to use, and now with LLM coding tools writing macOS/iOS/iPadOS…

funnily enough, I talked recently to someone working on the swift compiler (not an Apple employee) to make Swift functions differentiable. So its not all dead yet

Re: Swift 6.3

#114

Post by mathverse »

hocuspocus wrote: post #88
wiseowise wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> around 2015-17 - Swift could have easily dethroned Python. Why could it? > it was simple enough - very fast - could plug into the C/C++ ecosystem. Hence all the numeric stuff people were doing in Python powered by C++ libraries could've been done with Swift. Half a dozen languages fit this description. > the server ecosystem was starting to come to life, even supported by IBM. No, not at all. Kitura, Vapor (a fitti…

After that, and IBM losing interest, Apple did hire a few competent people (including contributors to Netty and Akka) to build the Swift Server Workgroup. But I don't know why I'd pick Swift on the server when Rust is better in almost every dimension, with a thriving and more community-driven ecosystem.

I think it's not about that but about dogfooding Swift on the server. Apple uses Go, Java etc for a lot of its server components and refused to invest in hiring people that would extend the ecosystem for server Swift.

Thats the problem.

Re: Swift 6.3

#115

Post by hirvi74 »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #94
72deluxe wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get this feeling with C#. I have been here since its release. I looked at Swift and then they moved very quickly at the beginning, so the book I had to teach me was out of date moments after it was printed. With all the complexity being thrown in, I stuck with C++ because at least it was only 1 language I had to keep track of (barely)!

C# is the other direction, IMO. I've been using C# since the first release in 2003/4 timeline? Aside from a few high profile language features like LINQ, generics, `async/await`, the syntax has grown, but the key additions have made the language simpler to use and more terse. Tuples and destructuring for example. Spread operators for collections. Switch expressions and pattern matching. These are mostly syntactic aff…

> Next big language addition will be discriminated unions and even that is really "opt-in" if you want to use it.

I was excited for DU until I saw the most recent implementation reveal.

https://github.com/dotnet/csharplang/blob/main/proposals/uni...

Compared to the beauty of Swift:

https://docs.swift.org/swift-book/documentation/the-swift-pr...

Re: Swift 6.3

#116

Post by mathverse »

Swift lives only for macOS,iOS and besides those ecosystems does not have a solid and robust ecosystem to be used for anything else.

It's a shame but it for sure needs BigTech for it to be used anywhere else.

Re: Swift 6.3

#117

Post by willio58 »

dzonga wrote: post #13

good to see incredible stuff being shipped in Swift. Haven't used it since v3 though. around 2015-17 - Swift could have easily dethroned Python. it was simple enough - very fast - could plug into the C/C++ ecosystem. Hence all the numeric stuff people were doing in Python powered by C++ libraries could've been done with Swift. the server ecosystem was starting to come to life, even supported by IBM. I think the letdo…

> the server ecosystem was starting to come to life, even supported by IBM.

I was in college at the time and doing some odd freelance jobs to make some money. Unbeknownst to my clients I was writing their website backends in swift, using build packs on heroku to get them hosted.

It was a fun time for me and I love swift but I will admit last year I went ahead and rewrote an entire one of those sites in good ol typescript. I love swift but anything outside of the Apple ecosystem with it just seems like it hasn’t hit critical mass yet.

Re: Swift 6.3

#118

Post by hirvi74 »

mathverse wrote: post #116

Swift lives only for macOS,iOS and besides those ecosystems does not have a solid and robust ecosystem to be used for anything else. It's a shame but it for sure needs BigTech for it to be used anywhere else.

I still have hope Swift will break free like C# has. I hope one day something like Vapor or Kitura takes off.

Re: Swift 6.3

#119

Post by mathverse »

isodev wrote: post #111
dzonga wrote: post #13

good to see incredible stuff being shipped in Swift. Haven't used it since v3 though. around 2015-17 - Swift could have easily dethroned Python. it was simple enough - very fast - could plug into the C/C++ ecosystem. Hence all the numeric stuff people were doing in Python powered by C++ libraries could've been done with Swift. the server ecosystem was starting to come to life, even supported by IBM. I think the letdo…

> Swift has remained largely an Apple ecosystem Even today, with the fancy Swift 6.3, the experience of using Swift for anything other than apps for Apple platforms is very painful. There is also the question of trust - I don't think anyone would voluntarily introduce Apple "The Gatekeeper" in parts of their stack unless they're forced to do it.

You can use swift on the server but what for? You have a gigantic ecosystems in languages X,Y,Z.

Even Apple does not use Swift on the server (AFAIK) so why would you?

Re: Swift 6.3

#120

Post by hirvi74 »

The Lord's language keeps getting better and better. The easier C interop could not have come at a more serendipitous time in my life.
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