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End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

patrick-breyer.de

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Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#101

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

embedding-shape wrote: post #49
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #11

This will come back because too many EU countries want it.

Judging by https://howtheyvote.eu/votes/189270 , the outliers who seem to want this, would be France, Hungary, Poland and Ireland, all other countries seems to had the majority MEPs voting against it.

It's way more complicated. For instance according to this vote Denmark is overwhelmingly against it. However Denmark most recently was the country that pushed heavily towards this, in fact, under Denmark's leadership the whole thing was revived last time around.

If you look at local politics and news they are all lobbying massively for it (or some people do). The reason is usually "for sake of the children". Parents in particular are heavily in favor of chat control.

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#103

Post by Kim_Bruning »

naasking wrote: post #98
Kim_Bruning wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Checks and balances means some folks should NOT be directly elected. if everyone is , then you have checked and balanced by . Which is to say, not at all. :-P

You could have a system where everyone is directly elected while keeping checks and balances, if voting were restricted , eg. maybe everyone can vote for a president/prime minister, but only non-teachers can vote for an education minister, and only non-finance people can vote for something like the Fed chief, etc. The point being the checks and balances now happen because other groups keep your group in check by voti…

Absolutely! That does keep some of the checks. You can do better than that though!

It's like on the Apollo missions where some parts were made by two completely different manufacturers and worked completely differently.

Hybrid political systems are best. Of course if we like democracy (and most people do), then that should be the most common kind of component. But I'd still like to have some different paradigms mixed into the system. And that's exactly what most modern constitutions do, for better or for worse.

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#104

Post by miroljub »

camgunz wrote: post #23
miroljub wrote: post #15

[flagged]

They literally just voted it down. Twice in 2 days. Also compared to whom?

> They literally just voted it down. Twice in 2 days.

And they will try again tomorrow. Until it passes.

> Also compared to whom?

Why compare? The fact that there are worse regimes than the EU doesn't make the EU even a single bit better. Lesser evil is still evil. Let us strive for good.

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#105

Post by wongarsu »

latexr wrote: post #79
whywhywhywhy wrote: post #58

It doesn’t matter they can just keep trying and paying people off until it gets through. Someone somewhere really really wants this and has the time and resources so it’s an inevitability.

It does matter. Even if it eventually passes, the later and more gutted it is, the better. Saying that it doesn’t matter is just defeatist (and unfortunately always parroted on HN) and plainly wrong. Defeatists have been proven wrong time and again.

Also making sure this is as painful and costly as possible to pass will discourage future attempts. If we just rolled over and let it happen that would signal that it's easy to pass legislation like this and we would get a lot more like it

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#106

Post by miohtama »

Here is the EPP's plea to get this passed earlier.

They even used a teddy bear image.

https://www.eppgroup.eu/newsroom/epp-urges-support-for-last-...

"Protecting children is not optional," said Lena Düpont MEP, EPP Group spokeswoman on Legal and Home Affairs. "We call on the S&D Group to stop hiding behind excuses and finally take responsibility. We cannot afford a safe haven for child abusers online. Every delay leaves children exposed and offenders unchallenged."

Personally, I feel there must be other privacy-preserving ways to address child abusers than mass surveillance.

Also, for the record, here is the list of parties that lobbied for this for Mrs Düpont, alongside very few privacy-focused organisations. Not sure why Canada or Australia are lobbying for EU laws.

ANNEX: LIST OF ENTITIES OR PERSONS FROM WHOM THE RAPPORTEUR HAS RECEIVED INPUT

- Access Now

- Australian eSafety Commissioner

- Bundesrechtsanwaltskammer (BRAK)

- Canadian Centre for Child Protection

- cdt - Center for Democracy & Technology

- eco - Association of the Internet Industry

- EDPS

- EDRI

- Facebook

- Fundamental Rights Agency

- Improving the digital environment for children (regrouping several child protection NGOs across the EU and beyond, including Missing Children Europe, Child Focus)

- INHOPE – the International Association of Internet Hotlines

- International Justice Mission Deutschland e.V./ We Protect

- Internet Watch Foundation

- Internet Society

- Match Group

- Microsoft

- Thorn (Ashton Kutcher)

- UNICEF

- UN Special Rapporteur on the right to privacy

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/A-9-2020-0258_...

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#107

Post by marginalia_nu »

cbg0 wrote: post #34
ecshafer wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is fundamentally flawed. There are no checks and balances, and its only democratic if you squint and look at it the right way. People need to directly elect the MPs, directly elect some kind of president. They have no accountability, no checks and balances.

> The EU is fundamentally flawed. There are no checks and balances You're missing a [citation needed] on that.

Non-elected representatives from my country keep pushing for chat control via the council. How do I, as a citizen, hold them accountable?

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#108

Post by miohtama »

embedding-shape wrote: post #49
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #11

This will come back because too many EU countries want it.

Judging by https://howtheyvote.eu/votes/189270 , the outliers who seem to want this, would be France, Hungary, Poland and Ireland, all other countries seems to had the majority MEPs voting against it.

Hungary can be explained by Victor Organ's desire to spy on the opposition by any means necessary.

France has had really strange tendencies lately, e.g. when they arrested Telegram founder.

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#109

Post by wongarsu »

cbeach wrote: post #88
Ms-J wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until we stop them.

In 2016 the UK demonstrated that there is a way for the public to vote down the corpus of bad EU legislation. Of course our national govts have been pretty woeful ever since, but in 2029 we will have the opportunity to vote for genuine, dramatic change, with strong options on both the left and right side of politics. Regarding the creeping surveillance state, Reform UK have explicitly stated they will repeal the awfu…

The UK has shown that they can vote down bad EU legislation, and pass a lot of pretty awful legislation that's worse than anything the EU ever produced

But I'm sure voting for Nigel Farage one more time will fix everything

Re: End of "Chat Control": EU parliament stops mass surveillance

#110

Post by SiempreViernes »

pqtyw wrote: post #57
rsynnott wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The screenshot is actually a vote on an amendment. Here's the final vote: https://howtheyvote.eu/votes/189270 Less tight.

I don't quite get it, so the conservatives wanted/want to repeat the vote but also the EPP voted against it and the Socialists supported it?

So what happened previously is that the parliament accepted a modified text for an extension of "chat control 1.0", the conservatives didn't like that draft so they managed to get a redo of the vote on the amendments.

It seems this second time around amendment votes produced a final draft that the parliament as a whole found unacceptable, which apparently includes the majority of the EPP.

You can see the outcome of the individual amendment votes here, starting on page 15: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/PV-10-2026-03-...

and what the actual amendments were here: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/LIBE-AM-784377...

It is however quite tedious to go trough this to figure out what the final draft text was that then lead to the outright rejection.

From the tweet, it seems tuta is implying it was the vote in favour of amendment 34 that killed the extension; I guess that's possible but certainly not obvious from the amendment text:

> Reports on the 1325% increase in generative AI produced child sexual material requires voluntary detection to be calibrated to distinguish artificial material and avoid diverting resources from victims in immediate danger. Such measures should prevent the revictimization of children through AI models, while ensuring that this technological development does not justify general monitoring, a relaxation of privacy standards, or the weakening of end-to-end encryption.

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