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Swift 6.3

swift.org

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Re: Swift 6.3

#31

Post by troupo »

willtemperley wrote: post #22
iamcalledrob wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's my read too. Swift was feeling pretty exciting around ~v3. It was small and easy to learn, felt modern, and had solid interop with ObjC/C++. ...but then absolutely exploded in complexity. New features and syntax thrown in make it feel like C++. 10 ways of doing the same thing. I wish they'd kept the language simple and lean, and wrapped additional complexity as optional packages. It just feels like such a smal…

Which keywords would you get rid of and why? You don't have to use all of them!

1. You don't have to use it all, but someone will. And there are over 200 keywords in the language: https://x.com/jacobtechtavern/status/1841251621004538183

2. On top of that many of the features in the language exist not because they were carefully designed, but because they were rushed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47529006

Re: Swift 6.3

#32

Post by cloogshicer »

willtemperley wrote: post #22
iamcalledrob wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's my read too. Swift was feeling pretty exciting around ~v3. It was small and easy to learn, felt modern, and had solid interop with ObjC/C++. ...but then absolutely exploded in complexity. New features and syntax thrown in make it feel like C++. 10 ways of doing the same thing. I wish they'd kept the language simple and lean, and wrapped additional complexity as optional packages. It just feels like such a smal…

Which keywords would you get rid of and why? You don't have to use all of them!

But you have to know all of them to read other people's code.

To answer your question: I would immediately get rid of guard.

Also, I think the complexity and interplay of structs, classes, enums, protocols and now actors is staggering.

Re: Swift 6.3

#33

Post by frizlab »

0x3f wrote: post #21
frizlab wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? I can indeed target every layer of the software stack using Swift, today . E.g. ClearSurgery[0] is written fully in Swift, including the real-time components running on the Linux boxes. [0] https://clearsurgery.vision

I _can_ do the same with Rust, doesn't mean it's "the language I reach for" for making e.g. a website. Because the tooling, ergonomics, hireability factor, etc. are still very harshly against it. Same with Swift, but I'd call that more of a wasted opportunity because Apple, unlike Rust Foundation, has a mountain of money to make it happen, and yet they don't seem to care.

> They don't seem to care.

I don’t believe that’s true. Things are moving constantly, and in the right direction. Then again it would help if you cited particular grievances, because being a regular (cross-platform/cross-target) Swift user I am not sure what you are talking about…

I did not choose ClearSurgery’s example randomly. I was at a conference recently where the CTO was here, and he explicitly told us they were moving fast thanks to the Swift ecosystem. (I am not working there personally, nor am I affiliated.)

Re: Swift 6.3

#34

Post by frizlab »

zarzavat wrote: post #20
frizlab wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? I can indeed target every layer of the software stack using Swift, today . E.g. ClearSurgery[0] is written fully in Swift, including the real-time components running on the Linux boxes. [0] https://clearsurgery.vision

I don't know why anyone would want to use Apple tools if they are not developing for Apple platforms. Apple barely maintains compatibility for their own platforms, using Swift on a non-Apple platform is setting yourself up for doubule pain.

That was true for Swift 2, maybe a little for Swift 3, but it has not been true since a long time now…

Re: Swift 6.3

#35

Post by 72deluxe »

iamcalledrob wrote: post #19
dzonga wrote: post #13

good to see incredible stuff being shipped in Swift. Haven't used it since v3 though. around 2015-17 - Swift could have easily dethroned Python. it was simple enough - very fast - could plug into the C/C++ ecosystem. Hence all the numeric stuff people were doing in Python powered by C++ libraries could've been done with Swift. the server ecosystem was starting to come to life, even supported by IBM. I think the letdo…

That's my read too. Swift was feeling pretty exciting around ~v3. It was small and easy to learn, felt modern, and had solid interop with ObjC/C++. ...but then absolutely exploded in complexity. New features and syntax thrown in make it feel like C++. 10 ways of doing the same thing. I wish they'd kept the language simple and lean, and wrapped additional complexity as optional packages. It just feels like such a smal…

I get this feeling with C#. I have been here since its release. I looked at Swift and then they moved very quickly at the beginning, so the book I had to teach me was out of date moments after it was printed. With all the complexity being thrown in, I stuck with C++ because at least it was only 1 language I had to keep track of (barely)!

Re: Swift 6.3

#36

Post by p2detar »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #7
victorbjorklund wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. Could be nice for those developers that prioritize iOS and now they could keep writing Swift also for Android. Is it gonna be what you primarily use if you wanna write an Android app? Probably not. Is it gonna displace react Native? Probably not. Is it gonna reach the levels of flutter? Maybe.

The language doesn’t really matter. The underlying SDK/framework is where the action is at. However, I suspect that we may not be too far off, from LLMs being the true cross-platform system. You feed the same requirements, with different targets, and it generates full native apps.

> from LLMs being the true cross-platform system

Fully agree. I have zero Swift knowledge and currently use LLM to write a native app. I'm well aware of the SDKs and concepts in iOS development, so even if something's wrong I got intuition where to look and how to make the LLM fix it.

Re: Swift 6.3

#37

Post by bossyTeacher »

oefrha wrote: post #30
dzonga wrote: post #13

good to see incredible stuff being shipped in Swift. Haven't used it since v3 though. around 2015-17 - Swift could have easily dethroned Python. it was simple enough - very fast - could plug into the C/C++ ecosystem. Hence all the numeric stuff people were doing in Python powered by C++ libraries could've been done with Swift. the server ecosystem was starting to come to life, even supported by IBM. I think the letdo…

> Swift could have easily dethroned Python No way something that compiles as slowly as Swift dethrones Python. Edit: Plus Swift goes directly against the Zen of Python > Explicit is better than implicit. > Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those! coupled with shitty LSP support (even to this day) makes code even harder to understand than when you `import *` in Python. Edit 2: To expand a littl…

> Explicit is better than implicit.

That's funny. To me magic is implicit by definition and Python strikes me as a very magical language compared to something like Java that is way more explicit.

Re: Swift 6.3

#38

Post by vmsp »

dzonga wrote: post #13

good to see incredible stuff being shipped in Swift. Haven't used it since v3 though. around 2015-17 - Swift could have easily dethroned Python. it was simple enough - very fast - could plug into the C/C++ ecosystem. Hence all the numeric stuff people were doing in Python powered by C++ libraries could've been done with Swift. the server ecosystem was starting to come to life, even supported by IBM. I think the letdo…

True. Google was even thinking of switching TensorFlow from Python to Swift.

https://github.com/tensorflow/swift

Re: Swift 6.3

#39

Post by TekMol »

Swift reminds me a lot of Flash back in the day.

While the Flash guys had to use a native development environment and compile their stuff, I could just edit JavaScript in a plain text file and hit reload.

20 years later, and some of the same friends now swear by Swift. And have to use a native development environment and compile their stuff. While I still prefer to just edit JavaScript in a plain text file and hit reload.

Re: Swift 6.3

#40

Post by vovavili »

oefrha wrote: post #30
dzonga wrote: post #13

good to see incredible stuff being shipped in Swift. Haven't used it since v3 though. around 2015-17 - Swift could have easily dethroned Python. it was simple enough - very fast - could plug into the C/C++ ecosystem. Hence all the numeric stuff people were doing in Python powered by C++ libraries could've been done with Swift. the server ecosystem was starting to come to life, even supported by IBM. I think the letdo…

> Swift could have easily dethroned Python No way something that compiles as slowly as Swift dethrones Python. Edit: Plus Swift goes directly against the Zen of Python > Explicit is better than implicit. > Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those! coupled with shitty LSP support (even to this day) makes code even harder to understand than when you `import *` in Python. Edit 2: To expand a littl…

>No way something that compiles as slowly as Swift dethrones Python.

This must have pushed Chris Lattner towards making Mojo both interpreted and compiled at the same time.

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