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Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

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Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#401

Post by SAI_Peregrinus »

kelnos wrote: post #102
akdev1l wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People always say this to shit on glibc meanwhile those guys bend over backwards to provide strong API compatibilities. It rubs me off the wrong way. What glibc does not provide is forward compatibility. An application built with glibc 2.12 will not necessarily work with any older version. Such application could be rebuilt to work with an older glibc as the API is stable. The ABI is not which is why the application w…

> What glibc does not provide is forward compatibility. An application built with glibc 2.12 will not necessarily work with any older version. Is this correct? I think you perhaps have it backward? If I compile something against the glibc on my system (Debian testing), it may fail to run on older Debian releases that have older glibc versions. But I don't see why an app built against glibc 2.12 wouldn't run on Debian…

MUSL is a better libc for companies making proprietary binaries. They can either statically link it, or provide a .so with the musl version they want their programs to use & dynamically link that.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#402

Post by BobaFloutist »

colejohnson66 wrote: post #376
rickdeckard wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great idea! Such donations might even be tax-deductible revenue for Valve, so even the finance bros should love it. Although I would prefer if Valve simply commits to a fixed percentage of its Steam fee to be donated...

Forwarded donations are not tax-deductible (in the US); That's a lie that's been spread around the internet. If you give a company money with the express purpose of them forwarding it to someone else (the company acts as a "collection agent"), it's not their income or donation. https://taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/who-gets-tax-benefit-thos...

And even if it was, all "tax deductible" would mean is that they wouldn't have to pay taxes on that money. Which, you know, they don't get to spend. So it's kind of defacto tax deductible in the same sense that my friend's income is "tax deductible" for me, I guess.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#403

Post by lo_zamoyski »

BatteryMountain wrote: post #308
ACS_Solver wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Valve's Proton (so Wine + DXVK + some other additions) revolutionized gaming on Linux. I play games both for fun and work, and for a solid 3+ years now, gaming on Linux has been an "it just works" experience for me, and should be for most games that don't use kernel-level anticheat.

Now if only Steam would add a checkbox on their checkout page to add 10% donation/tip that goes directly to their upstream opensource dependencies (like the Wine team), that would be amazing! I would add extra money on every purchase to support these people!

> if only Steam would add a checkbox on their checkout page to add 10% donation/tip that goes directly to their upstream opensource dependencies

Or how about instead of passing the cost off to users, Steam actually supports them from their own profits? After all, they are profiting from free work.

We can't be pushovers about this.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#404

Post by akdev1l »

Pannoniae wrote: post #345
akdev1l wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proprietary software needs a stable ABI. Not games. DOOM runs on any Linux system since forever because we had access to the source. You can build it for Linux 2.6 and it’ll probably still work today. Sadly most games are proprietary

Not really. I actually tried building an "old" game (read: not updated since 2014 or so) on Linux when I used it. It didn't work because autotools changed, some weird errors with make, and the library APIs have changed too. In the end I gave up and just used proton on the windows .exe. Unbelievable. :(

I should clarify my original comment about stability only applies to glibc itself. Once we go out of glibc there will be varying degrees of API/ABI stability simply because at that point it’s just different groups of people doing the work

In some cases such libraries are also cross-platform so the same issues would be found on Windows (eg: try to build application which depends on openssl3 with openssl4 and it will not work on either Linux or windows)

For future reference if you ever need to do that again, it would be way easier to spin up a container with the build environment the software expects. Track down the last release date of the software and do podman run —-rm -it ubuntu:$from_that_time and just build the software as usual.

You can typically link the dependencies statically during build time to create system independent binaries. So the binary produced inside the container would work on your host as well.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#405

Post by whalesalad »

computomatic wrote: post #130
tombert wrote: post #16

Wine is a project that I've grown a near-infinite level of respect for. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that a lot of the work for Wine is boring and thankless. Digging through and trying to get exact parity with both the documented and undocumented behavior of Windows for the past 30 years doesn't sound fun, but it's finding every little weird edge case that makes Wine a viable product. The fact that Wine runs…

I avoided using Wine (and Linux for gaming generally) for years on the sole basis that I assumed what they were trying to do was impossible to do well. Occasionally I’d try wine for some simple game and be impressed it worked at all, but refused to admit to myself that it was something I could rely on. (This was many years ago and I freely admit today that I was wrong.)

The first time I seriously used wine it was to run Forscan (https://forscan.org/home.html) to interface with my car via OBD2 port. It quite literally just worked. Installed via the executable MSI installer, finished install, booted right up, and worked with the USB device.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#406

Post by bsimpson »

krastanov wrote: post #8
ticulatedspline wrote: post #4

Wine might be oddly self-defeating. Broad game support on Linux increases the viability of Linux as a desktop, which increases market share, which may result in developers creating Linux ports as a 1st class concern, which don't need Wine to run.

Wine's APIs are more stable than Linux's APIs, so it seems more plausible to me that Wine will become the first class target itself.

Valve nudges developers to ship/support their "one best version" of a game, and trust compatibility layers to make it work for everyone else.

For x86, that's Windows. For mobile/VR, it's Android.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#407

Post by InitialLastName »

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #403
BatteryMountain wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now if only Steam would add a checkbox on their checkout page to add 10% donation/tip that goes directly to their upstream opensource dependencies (like the Wine team), that would be amazing! I would add extra money on every purchase to support these people!

> if only Steam would add a checkbox on their checkout page to add 10% donation/tip that goes directly to their upstream opensource dependencies Or how about instead of passing the cost off to users, Steam actually supports them from their own profits? After all, they are profiting from free work. We can't be pushovers about this.

As far as I can tell, Valve makes significant contributions back to Wine via Proton development. Isn't that essentially them supporting their upstream dependencies with their own profits, by using some of those profits to pay people to contribute work to their open source dependencies?

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#408

Post by drnick1 »

Night_Thastus wrote: post #184
k33n wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with the Nvidia drivers for Linux?

They're garbage. They're bad enough that If you have an Nvidia GPU, it's borderline impractical to game on Linux. You can, but you'll be cutting framerates in half or more in many cases.

This is not true at all. I game on Linux (Arch, btw) on my 3090 and every game not using some kind of kernel-level anticheat just works. I have never made formal comparisons, but my experience is that I can't notice a difference in performance relative to Windows most of the time. One exception was Helldivers 2, but the performance gap has more or less closed recently with recent Proton versions.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#409

Post by Deebster »

torginus wrote: post #194
adelmotsjr wrote: post #5

Reading these posts always make me feel like an imposter. People are dealing with such low level things, while i'm outta here building simple CRUDs.

Why do people belittle CRUDs? Or even call them that? I have written quite a few applications, where there was a frotend which displayed things stored in a SQL db, with certain operations allowing you to modify said db, which I guess would fall into the CRUD variety, but the least of the complexity, and usefullness lay in that fact.

CRUD = Create, Read, Update, Delete

Plenty of business apps don't really ask for much more than that, and those are the CRUD apps. They're not particularly challenging to write, nor is it very interesting to do so.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#410

Post by neonstatic »

AdamConwayIE wrote: post #357
neonstatic wrote: post #351

> Wine 11 is different. This isn't just another yearly release with a few hundred bug fixes and some compatibility tweaks. It represents a huge number of changes and bug fixes. What's the point of being a "journalist", when your job is to write words and instead a machine has written them? What is the point of such a "journalist"? P.S. I am assuming "Lead Technical Editor" falls under the umbrella of "journalist" in…

Hey, article author here! I've been writing for nearly a decade, and I can assure you, all of this is human written. I've long been writing about the Linux kernel where it's been relevant to my coverage, and there are articles under my name talking about low-level technical aspects in drivers and kernels from as far back as 2017. I get that it's hard to know what to trust out there given that Dead Internet Theory is…

Apologies if my post hurt your feelings and I appreciate you taking the time to respond. The writing style in the piece I quoted looked very AI driven to me, that's why I said what I said.
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