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Data centers are transitioning from AC to DC

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Re: Data centers are transitioning from AC to DC

#131

Post by rdtsc »

qingcharles wrote: post #129
MathMonkeyMan wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I always heard that the phone lines carried their own power, and in Florida the phones did keep working when the power went out, but I never knew why. So the grid was always charging up the lead acid batteries, and the phone lines were always draining them? Or was there some kind of power switching going on where when the grid was available the batteries would just get "topped off" occasionally and were only dra…

It's a pretty decent chunk of power down a POTS cable too, as it was designed to ring multiple big chunky metal bells in the days of yore. I was wiring in a phone extension for my grandma once as a boy and grabbed the live cable instead of the extension and stripped the wire with my teeth (as you do). I've been electrocuted a great number of times by the mains AC, but getting hit by that juicy DC was the best one yet…

The teeth. Yikes! But yeah, I remember having the rotary phone disassembled and touching the wires adjusting something when a ring came. Gave me enough of a jolt to remember.

Re: Data centers are transitioning from AC to DC

#132

Post by em3rgent0rdr »

mjuarez wrote: post #35
bluGill wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

48vdc was common in phone exchanges. They filled the basement with lead-acid batteries and to could run without the grid for a couple weeks. In turn the phone was 99.999% reliable for decades.

Not to be _that_ guy, but it was technically -48V DC. Honestly, that was pretty surprising to me when I had to work with some telco equipment a couple of decades ago. To this day, I don't think I've encountered anything else that requires negative voltage relative to ground.

Some old guitar effects used -9V DC.[1] And the convention with guitar effects power adapter is the barrel is center negative (which is motivated with facilitating easy wiring of the socket's switch to connect to a 9V battery inside).

[1] https://www.analogisnotdead.com/article26/what-is-going-on-w...

Re: Data centers are transitioning from AC to DC

#133

Post by amluto »

ternus wrote: post #74
KnuthIsGod wrote: post #49

Waiting for home DC. It is silly to have AC to DC converters in all of my wall connected electronics ( LED bulbs, home controller, computer equipment etc )

The lesser-known instance of this is RV power. When you're running off small batteries and solar, you want to make the best use of the watt-hours you have, and that means avoiding the DC-to-AC-to-DC loop wherever possible. So you run 12V (or in newer models, higher voltage) versions of everything, upconverting as necessary.

I am really skeptical that 12VDC power distribution in RVs actually saves power compared to a high-quality (hah!) higher voltage AC or DC system. 12V is absurdly low and you can’t easily lose quite a few percent in resistive losses even with fairly large cables, and those large cables are quite unpleasant to work with and rather dangerous.

Re: Data centers are transitioning from AC to DC

#134

Post by amluto »

umvi wrote: post #17

I don't understand why new houses don't just have one high quality AC/DC converter so you can just use LED lighting without every bulb needing its own AC/DC converter. I imagine the light bulb cartel wouldn't really like that.

Every decent LED would then need … a switching power supply. LEDs are current-driven devices, and you get the best efficiency if you use an actual current-controlled supply. And those ICs are very, very cheap now.

The part that would genuinely be cheaper is avoiding problematic flicker. It takes a reasonably high quality LED driver to avoid 120Hz flicker, but a DC-supplied driver could be simpler and cheaper.

Re: Data centers are transitioning from AC to DC

#135

Post by rdtsc »

Animats wrote: post #118

800V to each rackmount unit, with hot plugging of rack units? That's scary. The usual setup at this voltage is that you throw a hulking big switch to cut the power, and that mechanically unlocks the cabinet. But that's not what these people have in mind. They want hot-plugging of individual rackmount units. GE has a paper about the power conversion design, but it doesn't mention the unit to rack electrical and mechan…

It is a pretty clever design

> When it is detected that the PDB starts to detach from the interface, the hot-swap controller quickly turns off the MOSFET to block the discharge path from Cin to the system. After the main power path is completely disconnected, the interface is physically detached, and no current flows at this time

> For insertion, long pins (typically for ground and control signals) make contact first to establish a stable reference and enable pre-insertion checks, while short pins (for power or sensitive signals) connect later once conditions are safe; during removal, the sequence is reversed, with short pins disconnecting first to minimize interference.

Re: Data centers are transitioning from AC to DC

#136

Post by amluto »

I wonder how much of the benefit is simpler redundant power equipment. For AC, you have standby UPSes and line-interactive UPSes and frequency and phase synchronization. And everything needs a bit more hold-up time because, in case of failure, your new power supply might be at a zero crossing.

For 800V DC, a simple UPS could interface with the main supply using just a pair of (large) diodes, and a more complex and more efficient one could use some fancy solid state switches, but there’s no need for anything as complex as a line-interactive AC UPS.

Re: Data centers are transitioning from AC to DC

#137

Post by jibal »

teleforce wrote: post #121
hristov wrote: post #9

It is absolutely stupid to talk about this as edisons revenge. If Tesla had the modern high power transistors needed to get high voltage dc out of the ac produced from a spinning turbine he would be all for high voltage dc too. Tesla understood that high voltage was needed for efficient long range transmission. He also understood that transformers were the inly remotely efficient way to climb up to and down from thes…

>It is absolutely stupid to talk about this as edisons revenge. If Tesla had the modern high power transistors needed to get high voltage dc out of the ac produced from a spinning turbine he would be all for high voltage dc too. This! The soon people realized these facts the better. The pervasive high rise buildings did not happen before the invention of modern cranes. Exactly twenty years ago I was doing a novel res…

https://shrunk.ai/research-journals/f/cranes-skyhooks-and-it...

Re: Data centers are transitioning from AC to DC

#138

Post by aaronbrethorst »

chrneu wrote: post #104
hristov wrote: post #9

It is absolutely stupid to talk about this as edisons revenge. If Tesla had the modern high power transistors needed to get high voltage dc out of the ac produced from a spinning turbine he would be all for high voltage dc too. Tesla understood that high voltage was needed for efficient long range transmission. He also understood that transformers were the inly remotely efficient way to climb up to and down from thes…

the internet really needs to stfu about tesla and get over that oatmeal comic that spawned a billion internet myths. dude was a decent inventor but suffered from chronic mental health issues and, in his lifetime, wasted so much time/energy/money and burned so many bridges with his horrible attitude. there's a reason most people didnt like him in his day, he was a depressed asshole who alienated everyone around him, a…

We’re talking about Nikola Tesla, not Elon Musk, and I don’t think Musk is gay.

Re: Data centers are transitioning from AC to DC

#139

Post by UltraSane »

teleforce wrote: post #130
mcbishop wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard the EV charging has played a big role in the maturation of GaN / SiC.

Yes, EV and high frequency electronics (microwave, mmWave, photonics) that require very fast switching capability.

And military radars love GaN

Re: Data centers are transitioning from AC to DC

#140

Post by 747fulloftapes »

bandrami wrote: post #26
adrr wrote: post #23

Our houses should be DC. So wasteful to have all these bricks to change to AC to DC.

I've worked overseas a lot and one thing that's really different from 2 decades ago is that I simply don't need a step-down transformer anymore because every single thing I plug in converts to DC (or otherwise accepts dual-voltage) anyways. So I have a giant collection of physical plug adapters because every device I use just needs to fit into the socket and takes care of it from there. (My stand mixer is the lone sa…

Agreed!

I spent a few years getting flown out around the world to service gear at different datacenters. I learned to pack an IEC 60320 C14 to NEMA 5-15R adapter cable and a dumb, un-protected* NEMA 5-15R power strip. While on-site at the datacenters, an empty PDU receptacle was often easy to find. At hotels, I'd bring home a native cable borrowed from or given to me by the native datacenter staff or I'd ask the hotel front desk to borrow a "computer power cable," (more often, I'd just show them a photo) and they generally were able to lend me one. It worked great. I never found a power supply that wasn't content with 208 or 240V.

Example adapters: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FD7PHB7Y or https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01IBIC1XG

*: Some fancier power strips with surge suppression have a MOV over-voltage varistor that may burn up if given 200V+, rendering the power strip useless. Hence, unprotected strips are necessary.

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