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Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

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Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#481

Post by grecy »

jlgreco wrote: post #457
pulplobster wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The population density of Sweden is lower than the US and it has excellent roads.

Yes, that is true. The amount that the population is willing to be taxed is also an important factor however. I'm not saying that states with bad roads don't have themselves to blame, just that density is a factor.

I said it's funny how Americans always use the big population excuse for having sub-par services.

You're saying that it's got more to do with how much the population is willing to be taxed, which I believe is the real reason.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#482

Post by zero_intp »

forgingahead wrote: post #93

This happened earlier as well during the early voting period (though Romney votes were being switched for Obama -- funny how one got coverage whilst the other didn't). It's not some conspiracy, just a calibration error. Source: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/11/03/Electroni...

oddly, breitbart is perhaps one of the least reputable media sources on the internet these days.

They are great if you are looking for biased, unfounded, or fraudulent "facts" to support an extractive wealth policy that exploits "undesirables"

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#483

Post by grecy »

wpietri wrote: post #204
grecy wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not use the word linear. Obviously scaling is hard, but I would expect that's one of the things a well functioning, well funded government should take care of, much like how Facebook and Google manage to scale well.

Your mistake is in thinking that Americans want a well-functioning, well-funded government. Some do, but a substantial swathe of America is currently, for one reason or another, opposed to that.

Right. So it has nothing to do with the size of the population, and everything to do with people not wanting to pay tax.

So to summarize, it's hilarious when Americans use the large population excuse for having sub-par services.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#484

Post by erichocean »

gordonguthrie wrote: post #446
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can't prove how you voted (i.e. so you can't sell your vote). // I assumed that if anything it was to prevent people being pressured in to voting a particular way (eg an abusive spouse) - what' wrong with selling your vote, surely that's still democratic: you've chosen to accept a particular candidate based on the outcome for you.

Vote buying is not about a voluntary market in a tradeable commodity - it is about your boss not being able to say 'prove you vote my way or I will sack you' or your landlord saying 'prove you vote may way or I will evict you'.

Nonsense. Existing laws protecting employees from employer retribution (e.g. for sexual orientation, or religion, or...) are still enforceable (and the judgments for plaintiffs are large, too).

There is no reason to prevent someone from verifying that their vote was counted -- not vote buying (or the presumed ease thereof), not vote tampering or stuffing (really?), not potential outside coercion of any kind. Laws exist for all of these things already, and would not suddenly become unenforceable or ineffective in the presence of vote verification.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#485

Post by petitmiam »

jlgreco wrote: post #201
grecy wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (1) We have > 300 M people. That's a huge population. It's hilarious when Americans use that as an excuse for things being sub-par in their country. I see it all the time for health care, roads, schools etc. Yes, your country has lots of people in it, but it also takes in an enormous amount of tax, and has enormous government agencies to organize this kind of thing. Everything should scale up appropriately, but you…

In the particular case of roads, the issue is actually that America does not have enough people for it's size. The population density in many states is too poor to support, at tax rates that americans are willing to tolerate, the amount of road that is necessary. See: the disparity between road quality in Maryland (good density) and Pennsylvania (poor density). (or, to correct for climate, compare Pennsylvania with N…

Your comment caught my eye, because I usually hear population density being used to explain why Australia's internet isn't as good as elsewhere.

I'm certainly no expert on the topic, but I haven't heard any news about any major problems with Australia's roads. I'm curious to know how they compare with roads in the US.

USA density: 33.7/km2 87.4/sq mi population: ~ 314 mil

AUS density: 2.8/km2 7.3/sq mi population: ~ 22 mil

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#486

Post by erichocean »

jcampbell1 wrote: post #348
zbowling wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one can prove I voted with a one way hash either. That's the point. Only I can verify myself.

You are still missing the point. Voters can't be given a receipt for how they voted, because then they can sell their vote.

Voters can sell their vote with or without a receipt. Furthermore, they can sell with a reasonable degree of certainty (if the buyer demanded it) already by submitting to a lie detector test.

There is no valid reason, moral or technical, for preventing voters from verifying their votes were accurately counted, and verification does not enable any new crimes – but it does prevent the current crime where someone's vote is either miscounted or not counted at all.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#487

Post by abduhl »

incongruity wrote: post #465
danielweber wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the bubble isn't fully filled in? What if it's 50% filled in? What if it there is a stray mark in another bubble? I'm not trying to play Loki's Wager -- there really have been incredibly close elections where you have puzzle out just what the voter intended and it's just not clear. Nor can you make the boundary be "well if it's not clear throw it away," because you can't tell when it doesn't become clear. Thi…

>What if the bubble isn't fully filled in? What if it's 50% filled in? What if it there is a stray mark in another bubble? Count it before the voter leaves, reject any ambiguous ballots with feedback about what's wrong and have the voter fix it before they leave. Repeat until it's accepted.

Just to be absolutely clear, you are advocating for people to have their votes approved prior to them being allowed to be cast?

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#488

Post by koide »

danielweber wrote: post #456
grey-area wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no ambiguity about a spoiled ballot. It's a legitimate protest with a clear outcome - the vote is not counted. A simple system of slips of paper marked by hand and counted by hand works better than anything involving chads, touch screens or electronic counting. Paper ballots are really the best solution we have at present and I'd argue the involvement of as many people as possible in counting and supervision…

What if the bubble isn't fully filled in? What if it's 50% filled in? What if it there is a stray mark in another bubble? I'm not trying to play Loki's Wager -- there really have been incredibly close elections where you have puzzle out just what the voter intended and it's just not clear. Nor can you make the boundary be "well if it's not clear throw it away," because you can't tell when it doesn't become clear. Thi…

You can tell when it does become unclear. If the machine reading the ballot cannot provide a single valid answer per each question based on what's in the ballot, then it should be thrown away.

How close elections are is orthogonal to this issue.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#490

Post by erichocean »

pessimizer wrote: post #265
tomp wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Voter ID to discourage minorities, students, elderly Why would that discourage anyone? In slovenia, you are required by law to carry an ID when you turn 18/get voting rights. So there's really no excuse for anyone to not have an id (or driver's licence).

If you live in a place that requires you to carry identification papers at all times, I can understand your shock. The US does not have national ID, and doesn't even require you to show identification to the police when asked.

Though it does require an ID to buy alcohol.

So I guess we're talking about people under 21 who (a) don't drive, (b) have never needed an ID for any other purpose, and (c) can vote but for whatever reason, are too poor/disadvantaged/etc. to get an ID.

And those people get a provisional ballot anyway.

I guess I don't see the problem with requiring ID; we require for far less important things already.

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