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Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

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Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#191

Post by dwroberts »

Perepiska wrote: post #137
tombert wrote: post #16

Wine is a project that I've grown a near-infinite level of respect for. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that a lot of the work for Wine is boring and thankless. Digging through and trying to get exact parity with both the documented and undocumented behavior of Windows for the past 30 years doesn't sound fun, but it's finding every little weird edge case that makes Wine a viable product. The fact that Wine runs…

I've tried to use Wine in order to play Steam Windows games on Mac. Wine silently exposes all my macos drives as D:/F:/etc that was open to any game I started. Immediately removed Wine. Awful experience.

Wine configuration -> Drives -> Remove

It's like the most trivial thing to change

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#192

Post by severino »

vbezhenar wrote: post #164
computomatic wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I avoided using Wine (and Linux for gaming generally) for years on the sole basis that I assumed what they were trying to do was impossible to do well. Occasionally I’d try wine for some simple game and be impressed it worked at all, but refused to admit to myself that it was something I could rely on. (This was many years ago and I freely admit today that I was wrong.)

[flagged]

Windows itself is a bunch of hacks, too, so if you think Wine is the same, then it surely looks like a very accurate emulation.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#193

Post by ndriscoll »

joe_mamba wrote: post #160
Asmod4n wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean dos games, just run them under a dos emulator then.

NO, I meant Windows games.

90s Windows ran inside of DOS, and you can run e.g. Windows 98 games (through Windows itself) in DOSBox. Look up exowin9x where they're trying to compile all of the necessary configs for one-click launchers.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#194

Post by torginus »

adelmotsjr wrote: post #5

Reading these posts always make me feel like an imposter. People are dealing with such low level things, while i'm outta here building simple CRUDs.

Why do people belittle CRUDs? Or even call them that? I have written quite a few applications, where there was a frotend which displayed things stored in a SQL db, with certain operations allowing you to modify said db, which I guess would fall into the CRUD variety, but the least of the complexity, and usefullness lay in that fact.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#195

Post by 1bpp »

dhosek wrote: post #156
tom_alexander wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outlook is a business exclusive these days?! Outlook used to be included in the most basic version of office back when I still used microsoft office.

I’ve only ever used Outlook when forced to by an employer and I find it a dreadful application to use. I would guess that most people prefer something else. I would imagine that most people tend to stick with the default email app on their computer (no idea what that is on Windows as I’ve managed to avoid having to use Windows for 7 years now).

The default mail app on Windows is now called Outlook for Windows, no relation to the Outlook in Office (sorry, Microsoft 365 Copilot), and it's a significantly worse barely functional webview. It also replaced the entire Calendar app, which was decent.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#196

Post by mifydev »

Hm, speculating a bit, but it feels like NTSYNC is essentially a beginning of NT Subsystem for Linux, or maybe ntoskrnl as a kernel module. Feels like the most clean and fast way to port Windows, since the rest of the interfaces are in the user space in real Windows. Essentially should be almost without overhead: user: [gdi32.dll,user32.dll,kernel32.dll -> ntdll.dll] -> kernel: [ntoskrnl.ko]

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#197

Post by seba_dos1 »

em-bee wrote: post #183
akdev1l wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry I am not sure if 2.12 is a a recent release or older, I made up this number up If the application is built against 2.12 it may link against symbols which are versioned 2.12 and may not work against 2.11 - the opposite (building against 2.11 and running on 2.12) will work >If true (I don't think it is), that is a hard showstopper for most companies that want to develop for Linux. Not really a show stopper, vendo…

The only problem with this approach is that glibc cannot have multiple versions running at once that's not correct. libraries have versions for a reason. the only thing preventing the installation of multiple glibc versions is the package manager or the package versioning. this makes building against an older version of glibc non-trivial, because there isn't a ready made package that you can just install. the workaro…

You compile in a container/chroot with the userspace you target. Done.

In the context of games, that will likely be Steam Runtime.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#198

Post by greiskul »

p1necone wrote: post #185
vbezhenar wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Games are mostly just doing their own thing, only interacting with the system for input & output. They should be trivial to port then, no?

Yeah but Windows is a more stable api to develop against than Linux (at least when it comes to stuff that games need to do) - it doesn't feel "pure", but pragmatically it's much better as a game developer to just make sure the Windows version works with proton than it is to develop a native Linux version that's liable to break the second you stop maintaining it.

As someone once said it best, Win32 is the only stable ABI on Linux: https://blog.hiler.eu/win32-the-only-stable-abi/

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#199

Post by nicoburns »

coldpie wrote: post #142
RachelF wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a superb project, and a hard thing to do. It is a pity that the apps most business people use everyday, like Word and Excel and Outlook don't work in it (Excel 2010 is the last version that has Platinum status). It is interesting that these are harder to get working than games.

> It is interesting that these are harder to get working than games. Games are mostly just doing their own thing, only interacting with the system for input & output. MS Office is using every single corner of Windows: every feature in the XML libraries, tons of .NET type stuff, all the OLE and COM and typelib and compound storage features, tons of Explorer integrations, auto-updating stuff via Windows patching mechan…

Office used to work well on WINE. It was the switch to a rolling release model that killed it.

Re: Wine 11 rewrites how Linux runs Windows games at kernel with massive speed gains

#200

Post by caconym_ »

vbezhenar wrote: post #164
computomatic wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I avoided using Wine (and Linux for gaming generally) for years on the sole basis that I assumed what they were trying to do was impossible to do well. Occasionally I’d try wine for some simple game and be impressed it worked at all, but refused to admit to myself that it was something I could rely on. (This was many years ago and I freely admit today that I was wrong.)

[flagged]

You seem to have missed this part of the comment you replied to:

> This was many years ago and I freely admit today that I was wrong.

Personally I stopped using Windows for gaming because it literally doesn't work anymore. I installed Windows 11 on my gaming VM and DLSS and FSR were just completely broken, didn't work at all. Couldn't figure it out. Switched to Linux (Bazzite for now) and I have no regrets; the only games that don't work are the dangerous time-wasters (live service games with invasive anti-cheat) that I have less and less time for as I age.

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