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Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

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Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#331

Post by scott_s »

Anjin wrote: post #41
llambda wrote: post #37

What I've read[1][2] in regard to this incident is that it is most likely a calibration issue: i.e. the touch screen is improperly calibrated and as a result is not selecting the proper region of the screen. Now this is concerning because it likely means other machines could be or are miscalibrated. However the important takeaway here is that this is not some malicious attempt to rig the vote. If that were the case t…

Unfortunately no, if you read what he wrote in the comments of that submission: Being a software developer, I immediately went into troubleshoot mode. I first thought the calibration was off and tried selecting Jill Stein to actually highlight Obama. Nope. Jill Stein was selected just fine. Next I deselected her and started at the top of Romney's name and started tapping very closely together to find the 'active area…

That still doesn't establish malice.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#332

Post by stevewillows »

regularfry wrote: post #320
JoeCortopassi wrote: post #295

I know that this will remain at the bottom of this thread, because it doesn't have enough conspiracy theory in it, but does anyone really think that this is actual vote tampering ? I mean, why on earth would you tamper with a voting machine so that it stuffs the ballot, but have it update the UI so that the user can see and report the error? This should fall to the way side of failing basic logic, but it doesn't beca…

If you assume that the team developing the software consists of more than one person, and a hypothetical vote-stuffer wants to minimise the number of people who know about the vote-stuffing attempt, they might not have any choice about who on the team actually implements the stuffing. It might be that they only have influence over the guy doing the UI. Or it could be an attempt at plausible deniability. If all the ma…

In the video they should have tested for calibration. It suggests that the votes are being forced to Mitt when really the screen is just off.

Further to this, why aren't the names randomized?!

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#333

Post by prakashk »

btilly wrote: post #226
king_jester wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Increasing access to voting isn't a form of voting manipulation, because the whole point of voting is to provide voting opportunities to every person who is eligible to vote.

Democrats are trying to change the voting rules because they believe that doing so will make the vote come out the way that they want it to. If you don't call this voting manipulation, what do you call it? I agree that it is nicer than trying to disenfranchise people, but the intent is the same. And I believe that the people pushing the rule would be doing the opposite if that's what their poll data suggested would b…

I don't think this is anywhere close to being as nefarious as voter suppression attempts.

If the increase in early voting schedules (even assuming that there is an intent to manipulate on the part of one side) are favoring one side, it is easily neutralized by the other side by participating in the early voting with equal, if not more, enthusiasm.

On the other hand, the victims of voter suppression tactics have no easy recourse to counter these attempts.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#334

Post by pavel_lishin »

danielweber wrote: post #255
pavel_lishin wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I missed the discussions in the thread; how is verifiability (is that a word?) a design flaw?

Because if you can prove to a third-party how you voted, you can sell your vote, or coerce someone else to vote a certain way. It's one of the biggest challenges in crypto-voting systems. And there are some solutions. But we need to hammer down on the "silly people, why not just print a receipt" idea really hard.

But I still would like to be able to have it proven to me that the way I voted matches what the system records. To me, that seems more important, but I also cannot say that it's more important than your points. Hm.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#335

Post by jbooth »

btilly wrote: post #226
king_jester wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Increasing access to voting isn't a form of voting manipulation, because the whole point of voting is to provide voting opportunities to every person who is eligible to vote.

Democrats are trying to change the voting rules because they believe that doing so will make the vote come out the way that they want it to. If you don't call this voting manipulation, what do you call it? I agree that it is nicer than trying to disenfranchise people, but the intent is the same. And I believe that the people pushing the rule would be doing the opposite if that's what their poll data suggested would b…

Give me a break, 'the intent is the same'.

Trying to disenfranchise people is wrong and should be outside the bounds of political activity, it's not 'the same' as trying to get your people to vote.

If they were taking up weapons and shooting up precincts likely to vote for the other guy, would 'the intent be the same'? I mean, they're just trying to win the election.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#336

Post by jpwagner »

JoeCortopassi wrote: post #295

I know that this will remain at the bottom of this thread, because it doesn't have enough conspiracy theory in it, but does anyone really think that this is actual vote tampering ? I mean, why on earth would you tamper with a voting machine so that it stuffs the ballot, but have it update the UI so that the user can see and report the error? This should fall to the way side of failing basic logic, but it doesn't beca…

I agree. Has no one here used a touchscreen on an airplane seat before, it's usually more than one finger width offset...

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#337

Post by specialist »

scottmp10 wrote: post #168
eli wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely not! It's a secret ballot -- you cannot have any way to prove which candidates you voted for.

There is plenty of research and sample implementations of electronic voting schemes in which the final outcome is verifiable without anyone being able to see anyone else's vote. As an example, I worked with Michael Clarkson on an implementation of Civitas: http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/papers/civitas-tr.pdf

I haven't looked at Civitas. The other crypto based voting systems I did study don't actually hide voter's identity in real world elections.

The trick to these systems is there's some one-way hash done. This requires a lot of ballots, with enough hash collisions to ensure one's ballot gets lost within the herd.

Alas, elections in the USA are precinct-based, typically 1 to 1,000 voters in size. And our ballots are complicated. My ballot this election had 20 issues.

So combinatorially, it's very likely my ballot will be utterly unique within my precinct. Meaning my ballot is not secret.

Edit: Clarification at end.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#338

Post by jbooth »

sinnerswing wrote: post #288
eli wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. There are a couple of other papers as well. The problem is they are far too complicated to explain to voters which makes them unlikely to be adopted and unlikely to be trusted. Having a secure vote is obviously the primary goal, but having a vote that people trust is pretty important too.

Here's one FROM Romney to Obama 'DOZENS' OF COLORADO ROMNEY VOTERS CLAIM MACHINES CHANGED VOTES TO OBAMA http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/11/03/Dozens-of...

Breitbart is much less credible than a reddit poster with video.

Actually, he'd be much less credible than an anonymous 4chan poster without video.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#339

Post by davej »

zbowling wrote: post #313
eli wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No dice. One of the goals is that you can't prove how you voted (i.e. so you can't sell your vote).

No one can prove I voted with a one way hash either. That's the point. Only I can verify myself.

Yes, you can prove which way you voted. That could potentially commoditise votes.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#340

Post by hnal943 »

howeyc wrote: post #237
btilly wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democrats have tried to increase the length of time early voting happens, increase the hours, and increase the number of voting locations. All of these changes make it easier for people who were on the fence about voting to vote. They do this because they know that people who might or might not vote are much more likely than not to vote Democratic. Thus adding these people to the vote advantages themselves and disadv…

You can't be serious. More people voting == voter manipulation??!?? I would call that a MORE REPRESENTATIVE democracy.

Dead people voting is manipulation. Just because more votes are cast doesn't mean they are legitimate.
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