Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes • Hacker News Board

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#291

Post by sinnerswing » Tue, Nov 06, 2012, 8:03 PM UTC

beatpanda wrote: post #193

This is just the tip of the iceberg, folks. If you're in the U.S. I highly reccomend being a poll worker in a contentious district in a swing state if you ever get the chance. I was in a suburb of Denver last election and saw all kinds of shenanigans, from people pulling fire alarms to clear out the polling places to people walking aaround with laptops "checking voter registration" (actually just lying to people to g…

Votes changing From Romney to Obama in Colorado

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/11/03/Dozens-of...

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#292

Post by mnicole » Tue, Nov 06, 2012, 8:05 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #226

king_jester wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Increasing access to voting isn't a form of voting manipulation, because the whole point of voting is to provide voting opportunities to every person who is eligible to vote.

Democrats are trying to change the voting rules because they believe that doing so will make the vote come out the way that they want it to. If you don't call this voting manipulation, what do you call it? I agree that it is nicer than trying to disenfranchise people, but the intent is the same. And I believe that the people pushing the rule would be doing the opposite if that's what their poll data suggested would b…

It's hardly manipulative when it gives the opposition just as equal an opportunity to garner votes they wouldn't have otherwise attained as well.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#293

Post by animal » Tue, Nov 06, 2012, 8:05 PM UTC

morsch wrote: post #4

The shenanigans you seem to tolerate during elections are just incomprehensible to us foreigners. The number of horror stories I've heard in the last couple of weeks regarding everything from just weirdness of the system to blatant manipulation is farcical. It's possible that I'm getting a bleaker picture than reality, I suppose, since I only read about the broken stuff and not the instances where everything just wor…

It's incomprehensible to me as an American how so many citizens of the country I live in are so fundamentally ignorant, but that doesn't change anything. I voted, but I honestly doubt my vote even gets counted. I wouldn't even be surprised if eventually it becomes public knowledge that the entire election process has been a complete sham and the totals mostly made up for the past few decades at least.

In any case, what am I supposed to do besides vote (at the polls - I'm all but convinced this is pointless), spend my money wisely (this is the best method I've come up with to enact some kind of change, but it's hardly effective since I'm not a billionaire), and write my "representatives" (who invariably respond with some boilerplate bullshit and go on doing whatever the folks paying for them (global business) want)?

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#294

Post by danielweber » Tue, Nov 06, 2012, 8:05 PM UTC

MartinCron wrote: post #283

tokenadult wrote: post #189

The system here in Minnesota works much better. All ballots are paper ballots that are indelibly marked by voters. My wife and I voted this morning in our busy precinct in Minnesota, where there are some tight statewide contests about constitutional amendments and perhaps the most contested race for our state's House of Representatives of any electoral district in our state. As usual, we voted by marking bubble-shape…

Bringing up the Coleman/Franken election reminds me of my particular pet peeve. When the margin of victory is less than the margin of error, it's impossible to know the will of the people. One hundredth of one percent is not within any reasonable margin of error.

Yeah, we aren't willing to admit it, but every voting system has a margin of error. Even 1 in a thousand voters will have problems with completely unambiguous questions.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#295

Post by JoeCortopassi » Tue, Nov 06, 2012, 8:07 PM UTC

I know that this will remain at the bottom of this thread, because it doesn't have enough conspiracy theory in it, but does anyone really think that this is actual vote tampering?

I mean, why on earth would you tamper with a voting machine so that it stuffs the ballot, but have it update the UI so that the user can see and report the error? This should fall to the way side of failing basic logic, but it doesn't because people want a sensationalist article to argue over. Changing votes would be much easier to do on the back end, and would have the additional benefit of never being detected by the user

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#296

Post by ommunist » Tue, Nov 06, 2012, 8:07 PM UTC

wbrendel wrote: post #65

What's wrong with paper ballots again? Serious question. In my area (northern MA), voters are given a ballot with a bubble next to each of the candidates' names. You use a marker to fill in the bubble next to the candidate you want to vote for, like 6-year-olds manage to do all the time on multiple choice tests in school. Then it gets read in by a machine, leaving a paper trail just in case. How are these electronic…

Electronic voting machines ar much better than paper because they cost MORE!

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#297

Post by icarus_drowning » Tue, Nov 06, 2012, 8:07 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #272

Someone wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also will have gotten rid of the idea that a vote is cast in private. A possible explanation for differences between exit polls and election results is that voters may not want to admit voting for extremist parties, or, conversely, may not want to publicly admit not having voted for party X.

That possible explanation has been put out repeatedly. Given how successful exit polling was until 2000 in the USA, and given how successful it is in elections around the world, I do not believe that this is a plausible explanation of recent discrepancies. But, as is common in this sort of situation, I have no way to prove it.

Nate Silver wrote a great article in 2010 about why the notion of exit polling itself has a lot of fundamental problems[1]-- among them, the fact that it is extraordinarily difficult to get an truly random sample.

[1]http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/ten-reasons-why-you-s...

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#298

Post by twoodfin » Tue, Nov 06, 2012, 8:08 PM UTC

genwin wrote: post #207

danielweber wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And who regulates the exit pollsters? Normally I wouldn't worry about this, but if you want to give them power to invalidate an election (or force an "investigation," whatever that means), then you shouldn't just let them run around doing whatever they think is best. but the odds of him losing are nil, the stats show. I don't even know what mindset produces this thought. While Nate Silver doesn't think Romney will wi…

Exit pollsters should be regulated, I agree, if only to avoid an expensive unnecessary investigation. The media says that Obama and Romney are neck & neck, because that gets more viewers, which sells the advertisements they depend on. (Every presidential election in your lifetime is guaranteed to be declared a "virtual tie" by the media--you'll hear those exact words every 4 years.) Those who understand stats know (w…

How old are you? Within my lifetime there have been at least six presidential elections that were absolutely not reported as "virtual ties", including the last one.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#299

Post by danielweber » Tue, Nov 06, 2012, 8:08 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #189

The system here in Minnesota works much better. All ballots are paper ballots that are indelibly marked by voters. My wife and I voted this morning in our busy precinct in Minnesota, where there are some tight statewide contests about constitutional amendments and perhaps the most contested race for our state's House of Representatives of any electoral district in our state. As usual, we voted by marking bubble-shape…

The machine in question does produce a paper trail (at least when deployed in my state).

Computer systems are trying to bring forward all the hidden problems that aren't found until we have to fight about the result and put them right in front of the user. By design, they are going to show more errors, instead of hiding them from the voter.

(I shouldn't need to say this, but I'm not saying computer voting systems are better. I tend to prefer pure paper. But each system has trade-offs.)

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#300

Post by morsch » Tue, Nov 06, 2012, 8:08 PM UTC

evandena wrote: post #253

danielweber wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you count a smudge instead of a complete filling-in of the oval? You have humans go over them, and people hate that. Just because you never see this issue doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's just that the ambiguous ballots don't matter in the vast majority of elections so no one cares. I'm not saying computers are better than paper. They each have trade-offs.

Bubbles seem stupid to me. It's a lot easier and less subjective on review to fill in an arrow than it is to fill in a bubble. Here's an example ballot of what I'm talking about: http://www.town.oregon.wi.us/uploads/ckfiles/images/nov_06_s...

Here's what our ballots look like: http://www.leinfelden-echterdingen.de/servlet/PB/show/141628...

There's never been any real discussion about it being complicated, confusing or needing any other kind of design change. (Which isn't to say that you couldn't make arguments in that vein.)