Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes • Hacker News Board

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#271

Post by robotresearcher » Tue, Nov 06, 2012, 7:53 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #40

morsch wrote: post #4

The shenanigans you seem to tolerate during elections are just incomprehensible to us foreigners. The number of horror stories I've heard in the last couple of weeks regarding everything from just weirdness of the system to blatant manipulation is farcical. It's possible that I'm getting a bleaker picture than reality, I suppose, since I only read about the broken stuff and not the instances where everything just wor…

Actually it's quite the opposite: People get so worked up about these things because they don't tolerate it. If you never hear about these things in your own country that means that apparently no one there cares.

There's also the possibility that other countries have more robust voting systems so there is less to complain about. Do you think voters wait in line for five hours in Germany, or get turned away from booths in Scotland? Voter turn out is slightly larger in both countries compared to the US, so apathy probably won't explain fewer complaints. It's more likely that the lack of a US national standard system permits more screw-ups and maybe occasional outright abuse.

*(Scotland 64%, Germany 68%, US 55%)

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#272

Post by btilly » Tue, Nov 06, 2012, 7:53 PM UTC

Someone wrote: post #132

danielweber wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

exit polls and voting results have routinely disagreed with each other since 2000. In most countries that would be taken as proof that the election was not fair It's absolutely not proof. It's, at the least, evidence. Exit polls are statistical -- in my dozens of times voting, I've never hit an exit pollster. But if you say "the exit polls disagree with the official numbers, so let's go with the exit polls" you have…

You also will have gotten rid of the idea that a vote is cast in private. A possible explanation for differences between exit polls and election results is that voters may not want to admit voting for extremist parties, or, conversely, may not want to publicly admit not having voted for party X.

That possible explanation has been put out repeatedly.

Given how successful exit polling was until 2000 in the USA, and given how successful it is in elections around the world, I do not believe that this is a plausible explanation of recent discrepancies.

But, as is common in this sort of situation, I have no way to prove it.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#273

Post by danielweber » Tue, Nov 06, 2012, 7:54 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #216

danielweber wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And who regulates the exit pollsters? Normally I wouldn't worry about this, but if you want to give them power to invalidate an election (or force an "investigation," whatever that means), then you shouldn't just let them run around doing whatever they think is best. but the odds of him losing are nil, the stats show. I don't even know what mindset produces this thought. While Nate Silver doesn't think Romney will wi…

Exit polls are like a canary in a coal mine. They can show evidence of manipulations that might have happened. If an investigation finds that no such manipulation seems to have occurred, then no harm is done. Unfortunately current US elections are unauditable because voting machines DO NOT produce any kind of verifiable voting trail. Furthermore the apparent conclusion of the US media is that past discrepancies are e…

Unfortunately current US elections are unauditable because voting machines DO NOT produce any kind of verifiable voting trail

Please stop.

The machine in the video (at least when deployed in NC) absolutely has a paper receipt that gets printed every time a button is pressed.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#274

Post by blindhippo » Tue, Nov 06, 2012, 7:56 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #226

king_jester wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Increasing access to voting isn't a form of voting manipulation, because the whole point of voting is to provide voting opportunities to every person who is eligible to vote.

Democrats are trying to change the voting rules because they believe that doing so will make the vote come out the way that they want it to. If you don't call this voting manipulation, what do you call it? I agree that it is nicer than trying to disenfranchise people, but the intent is the same. And I believe that the people pushing the rule would be doing the opposite if that's what their poll data suggested would b…

News flash: every candidate in every election attempts to manipulate the way people vote. It's kinda basic to the entire process.

However:

Increasing voter access is NOT ANTI-DEMOCRATIC.

Restricting voter access IS ANTI-DEMOCRATIC.

Which one are you accusing the Democrats of pursuing? Thus is the crux of this entire thread.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#275

Post by CamperBob2 » Tue, Nov 06, 2012, 7:56 PM UTC

Locke1689 wrote: post #208

marshallp wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, statistically, democrats are smarter than republicans. I must be smarter than average!

Depends on what you mean by smarter. Someone who votes Democrat is equally likely to have a college education as a Republican.

Source? I have never heard this.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#276

Post by InclinedPlane » Tue, Nov 06, 2012, 7:58 PM UTC

TwistedWeasel wrote: post #47

llambda wrote: post #37

What I've read[1][2] in regard to this incident is that it is most likely a calibration issue: i.e. the touch screen is improperly calibrated and as a result is not selecting the proper region of the screen. Now this is concerning because it likely means other machines could be or are miscalibrated. However the important takeaway here is that this is not some malicious attempt to rig the vote. If that were the case t…

The consumer electronics industry has shipped hundreds of millions of touch screens in the last few years and i've not seen a single article complaining that they opened up their new tablet/phone to find it mis-calibrated and that their touches were off my such a huge margin. Why are voting machines apparently subject to calibration problems that other touch screen devices are not?

This is an example where technological ignorance is dangerous because it leads to the wrong conclusions.

Multi-touch screens as used in smart phones use capacitive touch sensing technology, they do not require calibration.

Cheaper, older touch screen systems (such as those used with ATMs or voting machines) use resistive touch technology, they absolutely require calibration.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#277

Post by righteous » Tue, Nov 06, 2012, 7:58 PM UTC

kevinalexbrown wrote: post #140

If there were one aspect of electronic voting I could change it would be the following: allow electronic votes to be reviewed by each individual at a later date, from two independent organizations. Each vote gets sent to two independent electronic counting organizations, and each let you verify your vote after the election, with an (anonymous) confirmation number issued at voting time. If enough people cry foul to ru…

Why are you like so many others attempting to make electronic voting work? What's the benefit? Electronic voting is a slight improvement in speed-to-count and a mega step down in reliability, opportunity for fraud, undetectable errors, software glitches, screen glitches. Not the mention the need for electricity.

Paper ballots work great. Why change?

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#278

Post by msg » Tue, Nov 06, 2012, 7:59 PM UTC

eli wrote: post #147

kevinalexbrown wrote: post #140

If there were one aspect of electronic voting I could change it would be the following: allow electronic votes to be reviewed by each individual at a later date, from two independent organizations. Each vote gets sent to two independent electronic counting organizations, and each let you verify your vote after the election, with an (anonymous) confirmation number issued at voting time. If enough people cry foul to ru…

Definitely not! It's a secret ballot -- you cannot have any way to prove which candidates you voted for.

Unless you have an absentee ballot (e.g., everyone in WA state). You give your filled out (or empty!) ballot to the mafia to drop at the polling station, with the signed outer envelope (declaring under penalty of perjury that this is your vote), and collect your reward.

I dropped off my wife's ballot. It is totally normal for one person to drop off multiple ballots at the box. It would even be hard for you to notice multiple ballots being dropped. I did our two with one gesture.

The vote buying cow has already left the barn.

So it's far more important to let citizens verify that their vote was counted accurately, with some sort of anonymizing hash.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#279

Post by marshallp » Tue, Nov 06, 2012, 7:59 PM UTC

icarus_drowning wrote: post #239

marshallp wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not really being political. The OP said democrat fraud isn't getting attention on here, I simply pointed out it's more likely republicans would be committing fraud. That is all. I get it that republicans would "feel" offended, but that doesn't counter the likelihood of which party would harbor the unsavoury characters.

That assumption is political, and if you don't understand that then you're not a good match for this community.

Chill out, I'm half-trolling. It's election day. I knew I'd get a downvote-kicking.

I've been on here for 3 years, I'm a hugely valuable but underrated member of this community.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#280

Post by gte910h » Tue, Nov 06, 2012, 7:59 PM UTC

georgemcbay wrote: post #91

gte910h wrote: post #5

I hope this is a hoax.

I hope it is a hoax or a miscalculation issue. If it is actual fraud, I hope the people behind it are found, tried and if convicted punished to a degree warranted by what this would be -- treason.

While I emotionally agree with you, I think overcharging is a bane on the existence of the legal system.