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Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

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Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#221

Post by ars »

danielweber wrote: post #211
ars wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That receipt is actually legally iffy. In a small community you can keep track of who voted in what order, then look at the receipt and know who voted for who.

Seems about the same as having someone watch the order the paper ballots go into the box and then having someone go back through. Of course, we have ways of securing access to ballot boxes to a reasonable degree, and those ways are also applicable to the paper receipts.

No, since they individual papers you shuffle them.

Probably a receipt without a timestamp, and with a paper cutter would work as well.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#222

Post by ceejayoz »

TwistedWeasel wrote: post #47
llambda wrote: post #37

What I've read[1][2] in regard to this incident is that it is most likely a calibration issue: i.e. the touch screen is improperly calibrated and as a result is not selecting the proper region of the screen. Now this is concerning because it likely means other machines could be or are miscalibrated. However the important takeaway here is that this is not some malicious attempt to rig the vote. If that were the case t…

The consumer electronics industry has shipped hundreds of millions of touch screens in the last few years and i've not seen a single article complaining that they opened up their new tablet/phone to find it mis-calibrated and that their touches were off my such a huge margin. Why are voting machines apparently subject to calibration problems that other touch screen devices are not?

If you ever used a Palm Pilot, you've seen this sort of calibration issue. Given the state of government procurement, they're likely using that cheaper, crappier tech in most areas.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#223

Post by jarek »

sp332 wrote: post #166
jarek wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar reaction. The regulations on what is required to vote differ between states?! Cities run polling stations?! David Frum weighing in: http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/05/opinion/frum-election-chaos/in...

Did you miss the States part of "United States of America"? Ever since Madison's brilliant compromise at the founding of our current government http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connecticut_Compromise the USA has tried to be mindful of the sovereignty of the states. (America's previous government, under the Articles of Confederation, was a loose agreement among the states http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State%27s_rights#Cont…

Yes, I have a bit of a grasp on the setup, I just think it's completely insane and not worth the tradeoffs :)

Do you feel it's beneficial for New Hampshire to be in a federal union where it doesn't control its economic policy, central bank issues, or foreign policy, but can ensure it has its way on such issues on who can get married and how you vote in the federal elections, where your votes are ultimately largely meaningless? That seems a bit neither here nor there to me.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#225

Post by cafard »

darien wrote: post #157
eli wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely not! It's a secret ballot -- you cannot have any way to prove which candidates you voted for.

Federal District Judge Christine Arguello denied the existence of a constitutional right to a secret ballot. http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_21601455/federal-j...

Given that

a) the secret ballot was introduced into the US (originally as the "Australian ballot") many years after the ratification of the Constitution b) no amendment has prescribed it

I find it hard to quarrel with the judge. I do consider the secret ballot an excellent idea, but I don't see it as constitutionally mandated.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#226

Post by btilly »

king_jester wrote: post #199
btilly wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democrats have tried to increase the length of time early voting happens, increase the hours, and increase the number of voting locations. All of these changes make it easier for people who were on the fence about voting to vote. They do this because they know that people who might or might not vote are much more likely than not to vote Democratic. Thus adding these people to the vote advantages themselves and disadv…

Increasing access to voting isn't a form of voting manipulation, because the whole point of voting is to provide voting opportunities to every person who is eligible to vote.

Democrats are trying to change the voting rules because they believe that doing so will make the vote come out the way that they want it to.

If you don't call this voting manipulation, what do you call it?

I agree that it is nicer than trying to disenfranchise people, but the intent is the same. And I believe that the people pushing the rule would be doing the opposite if that's what their poll data suggested would be effective. As evidence see the story I linked to above of somebody trying to disenfranchise Florida Republicans by calling them up and telling them that they were ineligible to vote.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#227

Post by eli »

zbowling wrote: post #165
eli wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely not! It's a secret ballot -- you cannot have any way to prove which candidates you voted for.

One way hash with secret salt would work. You enter a secret password as a salt and get a hash code from all your votes so you have a provable record your vote got counted that you can verify but no body can reverse to know it's you. Then stick all the votes up on a server somewhere. Let us go and check our votes are in the list. We could then have informal verification and audits of the counts.

No dice. One of the goals is that you can't prove how you voted (i.e. so you can't sell your vote).

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#229

Post by ajross »

king_jester wrote: post #185
yesbabyyes wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If OP comes from a democracy, I highly doubt they do things like: - Voter ID to discourage minorities, students, elderly [1] - "True the Vote", invoking a problem that doesn't exist [2] - Another article on "True the Vote" [3] - Blocking voting on the weekend before election [4] - You don't see lines like this in other developed countries. It's not that they're not reported on because "no one cares", they're not repo…

So very much this. Voting systems and elections in the US are heavily gamed, mostly legally but always unethically. The reason why the US does not have smooth voting is because the incentive for elected officials isn't in getting people voting, but enabling voting for those with interests aligned with their own. When it comes to actual voters, some of them see nothing wrong with policies that are highly discriminator…

The "gamed" bit is the essence of the problem. The USA has a winner-take-all two party system and not a parliamentary setup. This simultaneously makes the victory margins razor thin (because the two parties naturally align at about 50% support) and the stakes of the outcome very high.

Where in most of Europe people can just go vote their favorite party and let the legislators figure out the details later, everything in the US is determined on one day.

So the incentives to game the system are immense, which is exactly why you see this kind of "Voter ID" laws to target unwanted demographics, and elaborate GoTV efforts with buses shuttling people around town, etc...

But even in the US, it doesn't have to be that way. Several states (mine among them) have moved to a 100% mail-in ballot system and eliminated in-person polling places.

Re: Reddit user captures video of 2012 voting machines altering votes

#230

Post by logjam »

btilly wrote: post #139
Alex3917 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Anyone who has been paying attention this election cycle knows about the attempts by both sides to manipulate rules about who can vote, when, in ways that advantage themselves and disadvantage each other." Since when have Democrats been passing laws to prevent old white people from voting?

Democrats have tried to increase the length of time early voting happens, increase the hours, and increase the number of voting locations. All of these changes make it easier for people who were on the fence about voting to vote. They do this because they know that people who might or might not vote are much more likely than not to vote Democratic. Thus adding these people to the vote advantages themselves and disadv…

Clearly, allowing easier access to voting is evil. No, definitely we should make it harder for those least able to afford it....working class people... to take time off from work and stand in line to vote.

/sarcasm

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