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Designing AI for Disruptive Science

asimov.press

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Re: Designing AI for Disruptive Science

#41
post #7

The article presumes that the models we have today describing everything could still be subject to a major paradigm shift. Maybe they could be, but it seems pretty unlikely. The edges of a lot of scientific understanding are now past practical applicability. The edges are essentially models of things impossible to test. In fact, relativity was only recently fully backed up with experimental data.

> relativity was only recently fully backed up with experimental data.

Gravitational deflection (General relativity) received pretty important confirmation in 1919, only 8 years after Einstein first proposed it.

Time dilation (Special realativity) was experimentally confirmed in 1932.

Re: Designing AI for Disruptive Science

#42
post #7

The article presumes that the models we have today describing everything could still be subject to a major paradigm shift. Maybe they could be, but it seems pretty unlikely. The edges of a lot of scientific understanding are now past practical applicability. The edges are essentially models of things impossible to test. In fact, relativity was only recently fully backed up with experimental data.

> In fact, relativity was only recently fully backed up with experimental data.

Can you elaborate on the assertion you made here? In addition to the important points @elbasti made about tests performed approximately a century ago, what does it even mean for a scientific theory to be "fully backed up"? Such theories can be tested and the tests either passed or the theory disproven but it's not possible to _prove_ such a theory. And to some extent we already know that relativity cannot be the final answer because it doesn't mesh well with quantum mechanics (which has been experimentally tested substantially, arguably even more than relativity has).

Re: Designing AI for Disruptive Science

#43
post #7

The article presumes that the models we have today describing everything could still be subject to a major paradigm shift. Maybe they could be, but it seems pretty unlikely. The edges of a lot of scientific understanding are now past practical applicability. The edges are essentially models of things impossible to test. In fact, relativity was only recently fully backed up with experimental data.

I don't think paradigm shifts have to be 'better' in some march-toward-progress sense, they can be lateral or even regressive in that way and still lead to longer-horizon improvements. I think also what's practically applicable changes constantly. Perhaps we're truly at the End of Science, but empirically we've been wrong every other time we've said that. My money is that there's more race to run.

On that note, Terence Tao gave a good interview to Dwarkesh Patel talking about Kepler. He pointed out that the previous geocentric models were actually more accurate than Kepler's at the time, in part because they'd had so much complexity piled on to solve minor errors. Kepler's theory was more elegant, but at the time it wasn't necessarily a better model.

I think important paradigm shifts can often look like this - there's not necessarily a reason to expect them to be instantly optimal. Deep Learning vs 'good old-fashioned AI' is another example of this dichotomy; it took a long time for deep learning to establish itself.

Re: Designing AI for Disruptive Science

#44
meh. I would be happier with this article if it demonstrated familiarity with the source material. "Del Rigor en la Ciencia" (On Exactitude in Science) was Borges (hilarious) investigation into Korzybski's General Semantics, a fact that was surprisingly absent from the text. Borges implied "the map is not the territory," but Korzybski actually came out in said it a decade or so before Borges wrote the story in question. Understanding the themes of Borges story is greatly informed by a passing familiarity with Korzybski's work. WorldCat tells me the 4th edition of "Science and Sanity" is widely held by libraries, and if you're interested in the assertions made in this article, you might enjoy reading (at least parts of) it.

https://search.worldcat.org/title/369632

The author completely missed the point Borges (and Korzybski) made about the utility of maps. Maps (according to both) are abstractions which allow the user to ignore irrelevant aspects of reality so other, more interesting facets come into sharper resolve. This might be why Beck's London Tube map is so well regarded. It allows the user to easily ignore aspects that are not germane to the task of deciding where and when to get on and off the tube.

But is a scientific paradigm like a map? Certainly it is an abstraction, if we take Kuhn's definition. If you're interested, I can recommend both "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" and "The Essential Tension : Selected Studies in Scientific Tradition and Change" by Kuhn.

https://search.worldcat.org/title/4660423077

https://search.worldcat.org/title/3034084

Calling scientific paradigms maps isn't wrong, per se, but it does create more of a meta-metaphor, and a weak one at that.

Also. No. Maxwell did not replace a patchwork of equations with four short ones. That was Heaviside.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Heaviside

Something we don't mention in polite society these days is that Maxwell proposed electromagnetic waves as propagating through an aether:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_Treatise_on_Electricity_and...

If you're going to talk about new paradigms, Maxwell is a great example, but his story is not complete without mentioning Heaviside, Michelson and Morley.

Also... I bristle at the phrase "Hypernormal Science." It's also introduced without definition or reference. Collins, et al describe it as distinct from (though seemingly related to) the word "Hypernormal" as coined by Yurchak in "Everything Was Forever Until It Was No More."

https://direct.mit.edu/posc/article-abstract/31/2/262/112751...

https://search.worldcat.org/title/1572419463

Or if you're short on time, you can get an entertaining (though not as enlightening) description from Adam Curtis' 2016 documentary HyperNormalization. You won't come away from it with a better understanding of AI, General Semantics or Popperian falsifiability, but it has a striking visual style and a very good soundtrack. And may lead to a better understanding of "hypernormal science."

https://youtu.be/u1Tp-ryQPFI

And getting back to the Michelson-Morley experiment. The author talks about how their results did not cause the scientific establishment to abandon the concept of luminiferous aether. Certainly there is conservatism in science. Gigging science-monkeys tend to want to see interesting results replicated.

And this was one of the issues with the MM experiment. It took a while to replicate. We're MUCH better at replicating it these days and I would guess that thousands (maybe hundreds) of physics undergrads did this very task last year. But we've had over a century of pedagogical experience w/ this experiment. We know how to structure it to get the results we want. This was not the case in the late 1800s and in fact, several early attempts to replicate the experiment suggested the existence of an aether which was drifting slowly towards Cleveland.

And what does it say that heat flow, fluid flow, diffusion and electrostatics share equations? Does it say there's something fundamental in reality? Or does it say there's something fundamental in the way we model reality?

That being said... I think the author has hit upon something here... people are often wary of evidence which contradicts experience, even when that evidence (and not experience) is more correct.

But each of the examples he provides glosses over the process by which new paradigms overrode the old.

I deeply appreciate the author avoiding slavish fealty to fashionable AI trends. He probably could have gone further to describe more representational weakness of ESM3 and GNoME.

I fear, however, he has missed the point. It's less interesting to describe the messy ways in which AI fails than to describe the messy ways in which humans succeed. The process by which paradigms shift is messy, social and fundamentally human. It often has more to do with qualitative explanations than quantitative science. Science, as a human endeavor, is very much a story-telling exercise.

Re: Designing AI for Disruptive Science

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think paradigm shifts have to be 'better' But they do. Paradigm shifts happen because the new paradigm explains the unexplained and importantly also covers the old model. If prior data is unexplained with a paradigm shift, the shift will never be adopted. > Perhaps we're truly at the End of Science Who said that? Just because the core of our current models seem pretty rock steady doesn't mean there's not mo…

> Paradigm shifts happen because the new paradigm explains the unexplained and importantly also covers the old model Empirically it seems that paradigm shifts are more driven by deaths and retirement rather than improved fit to the data. Moreover the way that you reconcile old data with the new model can be contestable; it's not like everyone all at once says "oh this new model is clearly a strict superset of the pre…

> Empirically it seems that paradigm shifts are more driven by deaths and retirement rather than improved fit to the data.

Indeed, Kuhn's own work acknowledged this.

Re: Designing AI for Disruptive Science

#46
post #17

> AI could repeat this pattern at a larger scale — generating faster results within the existing paradigm, while the structural conditions for disruptive science remain unchanged or worsen. Worsen. LLMs discard/loses and mixes data on their statistical "compression" to create their vectorial database model. Across the time, successive feed back will be homologous to create a jpg image sourcing a jpg image that was cr…

Can you explain further how we can prevent this

Re: Designing AI for Disruptive Science

#47
As another commenter mentioned, the point of the story from Borges is that a perfectly detailed map is rather useless, because you need abstraction (it's a repeating theme in some other stories from him like the Library of Babel, and Funes the Memorious). LLMs are likely already able to exhaust the conceptual space for any given field, but some judgement is still going to be required about what to pursue. In biology and other fields this problem is even bigger because experimentation is so difficult and expensive.

The process of judgement and resource allocation will still be human for quite a while, but it's quite likely some humans will outsource their responsibility to AI to cut corners.

Re: Designing AI for Disruptive Science

#48
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...nothing inherently wrong with an enormous epicycle model of reality... That would be pretty hopeless for launching satellites and the like.

What use does the God of Math have for satellites and the like?

Well maybe not much for the God of math but Newtonian mechanics is more practical for life, beyond just matters of taste.

Re: Designing AI for Disruptive Science

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think paradigm shifts have to be 'better' But they do. Paradigm shifts happen because the new paradigm explains the unexplained and importantly also covers the old model. If prior data is unexplained with a paradigm shift, the shift will never be adopted. > Perhaps we're truly at the End of Science Who said that? Just because the core of our current models seem pretty rock steady doesn't mean there's not mo…

> Paradigm shifts happen because the new paradigm explains the unexplained and importantly also covers the old model Empirically it seems that paradigm shifts are more driven by deaths and retirement rather than improved fit to the data. Moreover the way that you reconcile old data with the new model can be contestable; it's not like everyone all at once says "oh this new model is clearly a strict superset of the pre…

> I cannot understand how anyone treat this as something that can be objectively concluded

Mostly because the room for the unexplained in physics is really small. It's possible that we end up finding some sort of big revelation about quantum physics that completely changes how we view relativity. But even in that case we are more likely to find that relativity is just a simplification of a more complex model with better explanatory power. Very much like how Newtonian physics still works really well from quite small things to anything most humans will deal with on earth. It's only when you start talking about uncommon experiences in extreme environments where relativity starts being a requirements to make the math work.

> there will be no more revolutions, only incremental adjustments on an unshakeable core into infinity

I guess I'm just more comfortable with that position. A lot of the revolutions in science circled around detecting and measure things previously immeasurable and unsee-able. The study of EMF exploded when it did because that's also when our ability to generate and measure electricity in more than just a party trick happened.

We are at a point where things are more of an unknown unknowns with no theoretical way to observe. The physics models at the fringes are mostly centered around things we can't measure.

There just aren't interactions we can't currently predict. The only one I know about is radioactive decay.

And a lot of this shows in modern society. In physics, the last major paradigm shift was relativity. That's a nearly 100 year old model at this point. Everything we have currently is just incremental improvements on the physics model.

I don't think this is because we just aren't as smart today as we once were. Quiet the opposite. There are far more people on the planet. There are almost certainly a lot more "Einsteins" trying to find a new paradigm and they've simply failed over the decades because it's seemingly increasingly unlikely that there is something to find.

Re: Designing AI for Disruptive Science

#50

What's more alarming isn't that AI is limited to existing domain data, it's that when people push it to deviate outside those known data points it confidently hallucinates nonsense.

Models are not trained to self-evaluate. Or only as an afterthought during tuning. So they are poor at it.

It isn’t mysterious.

Humans are trained incrementally, educated informally and formally, and along the way tested by context and classroom. Evaluated by people in their circle and strangers. The training to evaluate ourselves is near constant.

Even then, many people habitually believe they understand things they clearly don’t.

And can even be hostile to feedback.

Many forms of hallucination are canonized, or socially encouraged at varying demographic scales. While others are idiosyncratic.

Once self-examination is a first-class part of models training process, I expect they will respond like they have to being trained on vast troves of information, which is far excel human beings.

But, until then, their poor self-assessment isn’t mysterious, it is a mundane result of being trained not to do that. Or only as a tuning after thought.

Not as different from humans as we might like to think.

And models are noticeably improving on this measure. Humans in my experiencing may be regressing.

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