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I hate: Programming Wayland applications

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Re: I hate: Programming Wayland applications

#11

Post by mato »

cogman10 wrote: post #7
zabzonk wrote: post #4

Seems like complaining about how difficult to use Win32 and COM are. And they are if you use them directly! You don't do that - you use libraries that others have sweated over, as you did with raylib.

Exactly my impression. And honestly, X11 isn't exactly beautiful like the author is implying. A lot of the same wayland complaints they are putting here apply to X11. The main difference is that wayland is apparently handling the event loop for you while X11 expects you to set that up yourself. Win32 has exactly the same setup of problems here as wayland does. Moreso because Win32 just gives you back opaque handles w…

I used to program pure Xlib when I was 13 or so. I don't think the then-13-year-old me would manage pure Wayland.

Re: I hate: Programming Wayland applications

#12

Post by j16sdiz »

diath wrote: post #3

Wayland was designed from the point of view of theoretical purists. It's basically "how would a display server work in an ideal world", unfortunately, that design turns out to also be impractical and straight up developer/user hostile.

What make it worse: there are multiple implementation of composer, with small different in behaviour.

The extra security meant many automation tasks need to be done as extensions on composer level making this even worse

Re: I hate: Programming Wayland applications

#13

Post by j16sdiz »

dzogchen wrote: post #8
diath wrote: post #3

Wayland was designed from the point of view of theoretical purists. It's basically "how would a display server work in an ideal world", unfortunately, that design turns out to also be impractical and straight up developer/user hostile.

It is a damn shame that tools like xdotool (automation) and sxhkd (global keybinds) are impossible to recreate under Wayland.

Not literally impossible. You just need to write your own composer!

Re: I hate: Programming Wayland applications

#14

Post by ranger_danger »

eqvinox wrote: post #10
65a wrote: post #6

As a user, I like wayland. X11 was a security disaster. Wayland is much better about tearing. What scares me though are all the responsibilities passed to compositors, because what ends up happening is that each compositor may reimplement what should be common functionality in annoying ways. This is especially true for input things, like key remapping. This ultimately fragments linux desktop experiences even harder t…

Huh. The "security" preventing me from doing things I want to do is a major reason I dislike Wayland :/. (e.g. automation & scripting / input events, clipboard, ...) It also has noticeable mouse lag for me, I really hope this isn't due to avoiding tearing.

With great power comes great responsibility :)

Re: I hate: Programming Wayland applications

#20

Post by atomicnumber3 »

mato wrote: post #11
cogman10 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly my impression. And honestly, X11 isn't exactly beautiful like the author is implying. A lot of the same wayland complaints they are putting here apply to X11. The main difference is that wayland is apparently handling the event loop for you while X11 expects you to set that up yourself. Win32 has exactly the same setup of problems here as wayland does. Moreso because Win32 just gives you back opaque handles w…

I used to program pure Xlib when I was 13 or so. I don't think the then-13-year-old me would manage pure Wayland.

The point of wayland, though, is that back then 13-year-old you would get an application that "works" but to support myriad things (like HiDPI) you'd have to DIY it. Whereas now, sure a 13 year old perhaps won't write directly to wayland's APIs, but you'll use a library and have a much more globally usable result. And honestly probably have a better time - less effort for the same result, and with a more maintainable project in the long run.
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