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A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

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Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#251

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #223
anal_reactor wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like there was a brief period when middle class came to existence and started mimicking customs of the upper class, which were very complicated because the upper class was mostly bored and had invented this shit to kill the time. Then two things happened: 1. Upper class stopped being formal because formality stopped being a signal of upper class. 2. Middle class stopped having social gatherings in general. So,…

> invented this shit to kill the time This is unnecessarily flippant, trivializing, and reductive. The upper classes had the time and position to refine manners. I think one mistake people make is to think manners are arbitrary nonsense. But manners, when fitting, honor the self and others with conduct that suits the dignity of the human person and functions as a sign of that dignity. You cannot tell me that a man hu…

One of the true markers of being upper class is that you can get away with literal atrocities (see Epstein and co) as long as you're discrete enough and/or polished enough when talking to underlings and wannabes.

The upper classes in the UK regularly practice tone policing, where legitimate dissent is waved away as uncouth, even though what they say and do is far worse in private, and sometimes in public.

If you're looking for human dignity, I don't think this is its natural home.

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#252

Post by rvba »

jech wrote: post #217
apeescape wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm interested in learning more about this! As a Finn I love Poland and have been there multiple times (most recently just two weeks ago). I don't know the language, but details like honorifics reveal interesting tidbits of the culture and society. I guess I should prompt an LLM about it.

>> Poland has honorifics that are probably on par to those in Japan > I'm interested in learning more about this! It's very simple, actually. For strangers, you use the third person and the title « Pan » or « Pani » (Sir or Lady). You avoid pronouns, « The Lady has forgotten the Lady's purse on the table ». For friends, you use the t-form ("ty", thou), and use a diminutive rather than the full name. « Johny, you've f…

Calling someone Sir or Madam also exists in English and is nothing special.

You left out most of the interesting things.

For example the vocative case is partially dissapearing. Someone from Finland can actually understand this topic, since Finnish has multiple cases - more than in Polish language (meanwhile English has one case and if we try very hard we can squeeze something similar to a case - so let's say it has two).

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#253

Post by technothrasher »

ghaff wrote: post #234
Xixi wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I'd put it down entirely to Osaka versus Kyoto. My impression is that these things often have at least as much to do with upbringing, formality, and social background as with region. I don't know where you're from, so apologies if this is an unfair assumption, but in countries like the US or Australia people often seem less attuned to social class, whereas in places like the UK, France, and indeed Japan,…

In general, upper-classish dining probably used to be more formal in the US in terms of cutlery type and placement and other things. May still be in some circles but no one I know worries about such things and even very decent restaurants don’t. And when was the last time you saw a fish fork?

My mother-in-law always used to get annoyed at me for using my knife and fork in the European manor instead of the American way. She said it was boorish. I don't know anybody else here in the US who cares in the least which way you use your knife and fork, so I always interpreted it left over behavior from her upper class DC upbringing in the 1930-40's.

(I did try to explain to her that it was more related to my being left handed than my attempting to emulate European behavior. It didn't seem to make much difference to her.)

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#254

Post by [deleted] »

rvba wrote: post #180
maxerickson wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really a coherent statement. If people don't even know it, it's not part of the culture.

Is is also topic od relevance. Poland has honorifics that are probably on par to those in Japan, but since the language is difficult to learn and frankly speaking nobody cares about Poland, barely anyone even knows this. Also lots of corporations prefer "american style" approach of just refering by name (even to the CEO), so this dissapears. Probably could write few pages about this, but nobody would care to read.

[deleted]

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#255

Post by rglullis »

latexr wrote: post #226
rglullis wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's argumentum ad populum. Mind you, I'm not saying that standards must be followed. I am just saying the same thing I tell my kids: - the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist doesn't invalidate them - the reason rules and standards came to existence might or might not be applicable to our current context, but some people will expect you to follow them regardless. - If a rule or standard seems silly…

> the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist doesn't invalidate them But not observing them does. There are standards no one in the world follows anymore. They may still “be there”, but are only used for mocking purposes. > If a rule or standard seems silly to you, make your best attempt at understanding why people would still follow it. (Chesterton's fence) The corollary to that is that anyone who rebukes an…

I don't see anything in your responses that even remotely contradict or relate to what I said.

Are you just looking for an argument here?

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#256

Post by manarth »

0x3f wrote: post #231
tad_tough_anne wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't all younger Americans do this? Cutting food and pushing it onto the fork requires less dexterity than conveying it to one's mouth. I know Boomers who put down their knives after each cut (never using them to push) and swap their fork around before using it tines-down , and I think it's more comically affected than the tea–pinky thing.

You're not supposed to use the fork like a shovel, is the thing. The tines are to skewer the food, which is why tines-down makes sense. Otherwise, why not a spoon? Also, the at-distance interaction between two tools requires much more dexterity than making your hand meet your mouth. The latter you should be able to do with your eyes closed.

If I were eating a stereotypical British meal – say: meat, potatoes, and peas – I would use the fork as a "shovel" for the peas: guide the peas onto the fork with a knife, then raise and eat from the fork.

I wouldn't switch from a fork to a spoon to eat the peas.

Other vegetables are available. I'm not judging.

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#257

Post by manarth »

musicale wrote: post #141
mmsc wrote: post #134

こすり箸 Kosuribashi: To rub waribashi (disposable chopsticks) together to remove splinters. I don't know about Japan, but everybody does this in Taiwan.

Sandpaper and dremel aren't on the forbidden list yet.

I don't often bring sandpaper or dremel tools to a restaurant.

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#258

Post by renewiltord »

raised_by_foxes wrote: post #11
mjamesaustin wrote: post #7

I was shocked to find it's a faux pas to rub disposable chopsticks to remove potential splinters. I was taught this is what you're supposed to do with disposable chopsticks.

It's rude if it's a nice establishment, as it conveys your belief that the chopsticks are of low quality. So that's what you're signaling with that. If everyone already knows they are cheap (e.g. disposable), then have at it.

Why don’t they just serve proper chopsticks then instead of break apart ones? Cheapobashi - serving your customers disposable chopsticks when they’re paying for a good experience.

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#259

Post by manarth »

emursebrian wrote: post #5

Most of these are common sense. As a tourist foreigner, you also aren't expected to know all the customs but it's appreciated when you try. The one about which direction to NOT point the chopsticks in was new to me. If you just watch what other people are doing, then try to do the same thing, you're probably on the right track. Related to eating, one pro-tip I got from a local is that when you're ready to close your…

    when you're ready to close your tab, you can make a small X with your index fingers
In the UK, we have the mime of "writing a cheque". I wonder how widespread that is, and if/when it'll fall out of relevance with the following generations who have never seen a cheque-book?

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#260

Post by rvba »

apeescape wrote: post #202
rvba wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is is also topic od relevance. Poland has honorifics that are probably on par to those in Japan, but since the language is difficult to learn and frankly speaking nobody cares about Poland, barely anyone even knows this. Also lots of corporations prefer "american style" approach of just refering by name (even to the CEO), so this dissapears. Probably could write few pages about this, but nobody would care to read.

I'm interested in learning more about this! As a Finn I love Poland and have been there multiple times (most recently just two weeks ago). I don't know the language, but details like honorifics reveal interesting tidbits of the culture and society. I guess I should prompt an LLM about it.

If you are a Fin in Poland and a lot into nerd stuff, in Polish language some words are spelled with letters "h" and some with "ch" - where both have the same pronouciation now, but supposedly 150 years ago there was a difference.

Supposedly in Finish language you retained this difference and it can be heard in some words e.g. "raha" ("money" in Finish?).

Personally I never "heard" it - sounded as a regular "h" sound for me.

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