Do good, don't do bad. Okay.
Java is fast, code might not be
11–20 of 259 posts
Re: Java is fast, code might not be
#12First request latency also can really suck in Java before hotpathed code gets through the C2 compiler. You can warm up hotpaths by running that code during startup, but it's really annoying having to do that. Using C++, Go, or Rust gets you around that problem without having to jump through the hoops of code path warmup. I wish Java had a proper compiler.
Do none of the JVMs do that? GraalVM?
Re: Java is fast, code might not be
#13JavaScript can be fast too, it's just the ecosystem and decisions devs make that slow it down. Same for Java, I have yet to in my entire career see enterprise Java be performant and not memory intensive. At the end of the day, if you care about performance at the app layer, you will use a language better suited to that.
My experience with the defaults in JavaScript is that they’re pretty slow. It’s really, really easy to hit the limits of an express app and for those limits to be in your app code. I’ve worked on JVM backed apps and they’re memory hungry (well, they require a reallocation for the JVM) and they’re slow to boot but once they’re going they are absolutely ripping fast and your far more likely to be bottlenecked by your DB long before you need to start doing any horizontal scaling.
Re: Java is fast, code might not be
#14As much as I love Java, everybody should just be using Rust. That way you are actually in control, know what's going on, etc. Another reason specifically against Java is that the tooling, both Maven and Gradle, still stucks.
I'm a fan of Rust too. But there are millions of Java applications running in production right now, and some of them are running these anti-patterns today. Not everyone has the option to rewrite in a different language. For those teams, knowing what to look for in a profiler can make a real difference without changing a single dependency.
I think that right now it is easier than ever to rewrite your app in Rust, due to LLMs. Unfortunately there are still people out there who dismiss this idea, and continue having their back-end written in much inferior languages, like JavaScript or Python. If your back-end is written in Java, you aren't even in the worst spot.
Re: Java is fast, code might not be
#15As much as I love Java, everybody should just be using Rust. That way you are actually in control, know what's going on, etc. Another reason specifically against Java is that the tooling, both Maven and Gradle, still stucks.
Gradle does suck, it gives too much freedom on a tool that should be straightforward and actively design to avoid footguns, it does the opposite by providing a DSL that can create a lot of abstractions to manage dependencies. The only place I worked where the Gradle configuration looked somewhat sane had very strict design guidelines on what was acceptable to be in the Gradle config. Maven on the other hand, is just…
I would disagree that either "plain works" because to even package your app into a self-contained .jar, you need a plugin. I can't recall the specifics now, but years ago I spent many hours fighting both Maven and Gradle.
Re: Java is fast, code might not be
#16First request latency also can really suck in Java before hotpathed code gets through the C2 compiler. You can warm up hotpaths by running that code during startup, but it's really annoying having to do that. Using C++, Go, or Rust gets you around that problem without having to jump through the hoops of code path warmup. I wish Java had a proper compiler.
i'd be curious about a head to head comparison of how much the c2 actually buys over a static aot compilation with something serious like llvm.
if it is valuable, i'd be surprised you can't freeze/resume the state and use it for instantaneous workload optimized startup.
Re: Java is fast, code might not be
#17First request latency also can really suck in Java before hotpathed code gets through the C2 compiler. You can warm up hotpaths by running that code during startup, but it's really annoying having to do that. Using C++, Go, or Rust gets you around that problem without having to jump through the hoops of code path warmup. I wish Java had a proper compiler.
Do none of the JVMs do that? GraalVM?
My architecture builds a command registry in Clojure/JVM which runs as a daemon, the registry is shared by a dynamically generated babashka (GraalVM) shell that only includes whitelisted commands for that user. So for the user, unauthorized commands don’t even exist, and I get my JVM app with no startup overhead.
Re: Java is fast, code might not be
#18[dead]
Re: Java is fast, code might not be
#19[flagged]
Re: Java is fast, code might not be
#20Earlier quoted context omitted.
> That way you are actually in control Programming in Rust is a constant negotiation with the compiler. That isn't necessarily good or bad but I have far more control in Zig, and flexibility in Java.
Yes, there is a learning curve to Rust, but once you get proficient, it no longer bothers you. I think this is more good than bad, because, for example, look at Bun, it is written in Zig, it has so many bugs. They had a bug in their filesystem API that freezed your process, and it stayed unfixed for at least half a year after I filed it. Zig is a nice C replacement, but it doesn't have the same correctness guardrails…
Assuming we're talking about the same bug, The filesystem API freeze wasn't caused by Zig's lack of correctness guarantees, but a design flaw in Bun's implementation.