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Honda is killing its EVs

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Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#111

Post by lukan »

reverius42 wrote: post #103
walthamstow wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway is a very special case in that it has massive hydro energy resources and nobody lives there.

> hydro energy resources What is a hydro energy resource, a river? Don't lots of countries have rivers? (If we're talking about hydroelectric power plants they've chosen to build, that's not exactly a resource -- and other countries could choose to build those too, right?)

Norway has really a lots of rivers with lots of potential energy of the water, since it comes from the mountains at high altitude (Fjords).

Some big slow moving river in a flat land on the other hand is not helping you here.

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#112

Post by boringg »

reverius42 wrote: post #106
boringg wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting but North America has different needs for vehicles. Long time before our electrical systems to be able to compensate for that kind of whole sale change. Will be at least 20 years if it ever happens. I would also say that any ICE vehicle that has 0 subscription models, upgradable firmware, tracking software will probably have a value premium to it in the not distant future. FWIW downvoters - I have a PHEV…

> Long time before our electrical systems to be able to compensate for that kind of whole sale change. Will be at least 20 years if it ever happens. I don't know about the whole national electric grid, but at my house, I didn't really have to upgrade anything and didn't even notice an increase in electric bill when I started plugging in my EV. I don't think my car is even 20% of my household electricity usage. I'd ho…

Two points.

1. Infra will need to upgrade in order to handle heavy charging in neighborhoods with wholesale change in the fleet. It would change our electrical use model considerably in terms of times of use -- and we would be adding all the energy used from gas powered cars to the electrical grid - which is somewhat significant.

2. While you are correct technically -- I think what I am implying is older cars (ICE) will be the ones without all the tracking and software - whereas all EVs will have that embedded as they are all relatively new. There is no world where they remove that from new car production.

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#113

Post by theappsecguy »

reverius42 wrote: post #103
walthamstow wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway is a very special case in that it has massive hydro energy resources and nobody lives there.

> hydro energy resources What is a hydro energy resource, a river? Don't lots of countries have rivers? (If we're talking about hydroelectric power plants they've chosen to build, that's not exactly a resource -- and other countries could choose to build those too, right?)

Building hydro energy requires a very specific geography. You can't just take any river and turn it into an efficient hydroplant.

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#114

Post by ascorbic »

reverius42 wrote: post #103
walthamstow wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway is a very special case in that it has massive hydro energy resources and nobody lives there.

> hydro energy resources What is a hydro energy resource, a river? Don't lots of countries have rivers? (If we're talking about hydroelectric power plants they've chosen to build, that's not exactly a resource -- and other countries could choose to build those too, right?)

You need both the right geography and a lack of either people or democracy in the place you want to build it. That rules out new large hydro projects in most of Europe.

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#115

Post by SupremumLimit »

jacquesm wrote: post #92
TrackerFF wrote: post #85

I live in a top EV market, Norway. ICE cars have been planned out for years now, and something like 96% of all new cars in Norway were EV last year. Basically, if you plan on keeping selling ICE cars, you're removing yourself from the market here. There's no future for new personal ICE cars here. I figure most other countries will be the same.

> I live in a top EV market, Norway. It is the top EV market. > I figure most other countries will be the same. Most other countries are not Norway, it is a very wealthy, tiny market (150 K vehicles/year) with lots of hydro and not representative of the typical vehicle market in Western Europe and definitely not representative of the situation in the rest of the world. EVs are the future, there is no doubt about that…

Sure, but there is also China where over half of new vehicle sales are EVs. Denmark is at 70%, Sweden, Iceland, Finland and the Netherlands are all above 50%, a bunch of other countries in the EU are at one third EVs. In India, 5% of sales are EVs but that is double of the year before and all the big car manufacturers in India are now offering EVs. Even Australia is at 14% after stalling on EVs for years. So change is unfolding quite quickly compared to previous years. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/ev-share-new-car-sales-by-c...

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#116

Post by reverius42 »

quickthrowman wrote: post #102
johanvts wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once EVs are economically attractive the transition can be very fast. I live in Denmark so I have seen it, it took 7 years to go from ~5% to 90+% of new cars sold. Both EU and US are now relying on trade barriers to keep Chinese EVs away from consumers.

Denmark has 6M people. The US has 289M vehicles .

And how many new EVs did China make in the last 5 years?

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#117

Post by ascorbic »

walthamstow wrote: post #93
TrackerFF wrote: post #85

I live in a top EV market, Norway. ICE cars have been planned out for years now, and something like 96% of all new cars in Norway were EV last year. Basically, if you plan on keeping selling ICE cars, you're removing yourself from the market here. There's no future for new personal ICE cars here. I figure most other countries will be the same.

Norway is a very special case in that it has massive hydro energy resources and nobody lives there.

More importantly it's one of the richest countries in the world, and has high taxes but big tax breaks for EVs.

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#118

Post by formerly_proven »

giobox wrote: post #60
decimalenough wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was "Honda's EV" in the sense that it was the only EV with a Honda badge you could actually buy. The three canned models mentioned in the article never even made it into the market.

Europeans and the Japanese were able to buy the Honda e for a few years - this article wrongly states another unreleased model as Honda's first ground up EV. There's a few other EVs Honda produced in 90s as well, but e probably in running for first ground up new EV platform that made it to market as mass produced Honda product. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_e

The Honda e was a massively compromised vehicle due to the tiny ~29 kWh net battery and high energy consumption. It was released in 2020 but in terms of utility it's really much more like an early 2010s EV.

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#119

Post by bryanlarsen »

boringg wrote: post #97
TrackerFF wrote: post #85

I live in a top EV market, Norway. ICE cars have been planned out for years now, and something like 96% of all new cars in Norway were EV last year. Basically, if you plan on keeping selling ICE cars, you're removing yourself from the market here. There's no future for new personal ICE cars here. I figure most other countries will be the same.

Interesting but North America has different needs for vehicles. Long time before our electrical systems to be able to compensate for that kind of whole sale change. Will be at least 20 years if it ever happens. I would also say that any ICE vehicle that has 0 subscription models, upgradable firmware, tracking software will probably have a value premium to it in the not distant future. FWIW downvoters - I have a PHEV…

> Will be at least 20 years if it ever happens.

And if 100% of EV's sold this year were electric, it would take ~24 years for basically all of the vehicles on the road were electric. (The average age of registered cars in the US is 12 years old).

Estimates are that a 100% EV fleet would increase electricity demand by 20%. So that's Approximately how much demand increases due to increasing A/C usage in the US.

And a lot less than AI/crypto is increasing demand.

And that's not to mention that EV charging is a relatively easy demand to meet -- most EV owners charge when it's cheapest, so you can shape demand via price signals.

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#120

Post by storus »

nytesky wrote: post #31
johanvts wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once EVs are economically attractive the transition can be very fast. I live in Denmark so I have seen it, it took 7 years to go from ~5% to 90+% of new cars sold. Both EU and US are now relying on trade barriers to keep Chinese EVs away from consumers.

How is safety and quality for Chinese EVs? There was the 2008 melamine baby formula scandal, where a toxic substance was deliberately introduced into baby formula for domestic market. Chinese food imports were curtailed across many countries. Capitalism over there is at another level, and cars are so complicated with tiny changes can have huge problems. Look at the immobilizer chips that Kia dropped to save $5, which…

Electric cars are way way simpler than ICE cars. It's just market segmentation gone wrong when EU car manufacturers wanted to sell these cheaper cars as premium/luxury ones (i.e. greed) and therefore couldn't learn the lessons from producing them at scale on cheaper models. China had poor ICE cars and bet everything on EVs, scaled their production up, reiterated a few times, and now Nio/Xiaomi/BYD/Zeekr are better than anything built in the EU.
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