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If you thought code writing speed was your problem you have bigger problems

andrewmurphy.io

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Re: If you thought code writing speed was your problem you have bigger problems

#141

Post by zelphirkalt »

petcat wrote: post #20

As human developers, I think we're struggling with "letting go" of the code. The code we write (or agents write) is really just an intermediate representation (IR) of the solution. For instance, GCC will inline functions, unroll loops, and myriad other optimizations that we don't care about. But when we review the ASM that GCC generates (we don't) we are not concerned with the "spaghetti" and the "high coupling" and…

I see it differently: The code is our medium of communicating a solution.

> "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute." -- Hal Abelson

Without this, we quickly drift into treating computers and computer programs as even more magic, than we already do. When "agents" are mistaken about something, and put their "misunderstanding" into code that subsequently is incorrect, then we need to be able to go and look at it in detail, and not just bring sacrifices for the machine god.

Re: If you thought code writing speed was your problem you have bigger problems

#142

Post by myst »

No one there is solving a problem. The AI bros are hooking a new generation (NG) on _their_ set of crutches, without which NG "is not coding (living) up to their true potential". Nothing personal, just business.

PS. The tech bros tried to do exactly that to millennials, but accidentally shot boomers instead.

Re: If you thought code writing speed was your problem you have bigger problems

#144

Post by malfist »

mooreds wrote: post #133
nicbou wrote: post #114

I'm a solo dev. In fact I'm hardly a dev; it's just a helpful skill. Code writing speed IS a problem, because it takes valuable time away from other tasks. A bit like doing the dishes. I just set up Claude Code tonight. I still read and understand every line, but I don't need to Google things, move things around and write tests myself. I state my low-level intent and it does the grunt work. I'm not going to 10x my pr…

This is the way.

[flagged]

Re: If you thought code writing speed was your problem you have bigger problems

#145

Post by tcmart14 »

petcat wrote: post #94
tcmart14 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I commented elsewhere, but that doesn't mean it's not deterministic. Deterministic means given the same input it gives the same output. Compilers can still have bugs and generate the wrong code. But so long as given the same input it generates the same wrong output, it is still deterministic.

Compilers can generate wrong output in many different ways. And they're all analogous to the same ways that a sophisticated LLM can generate wrong outputs. The compiler relies on: * Careful use of the ENV vars and CLI options * The host system, or the compilation of the target executable (for cross-compiling) * It relies on the source code specifically How is this really different from careful prompt engineering, and…

And none of that means it isn't non-deterministic. Compilers still satisfy the, given the exact same environment and input, you get the same output. It doesn't matter the number of inputs. So long as f(3, 2) always gives 5, it's deterministic. Doesn't matter what f(x,y) does so long as it always gives the same output per input. LLM generation does not do this. If given f(3,2), sometimes it says 5, sometimes 6, sometimes 1001, sometimes 2.

And we are talking compilers, not query optimizers, so I don't really care what they do.

Re: If you thought code writing speed was your problem you have bigger problems

#146

Post by dannersy »

The blog isn't even necessarily anti-AI yet the majority of responses here are defending it like the author kicked their dog.

The sentiment that developers shouldn't be writing code anymore means I cannot take you seriously. I see these tools fail on a daily basis and it is sad that everyone is willing to concede their agency.

Re: If you thought code writing speed was your problem you have bigger problems

#147

Post by apsurd »

nicbou wrote: post #114

I'm a solo dev. In fact I'm hardly a dev; it's just a helpful skill. Code writing speed IS a problem, because it takes valuable time away from other tasks. A bit like doing the dishes. I just set up Claude Code tonight. I still read and understand every line, but I don't need to Google things, move things around and write tests myself. I state my low-level intent and it does the grunt work. I'm not going to 10x my pr…

The intention of the title is to say your main problem. The problem separating you from $PROFIT$:

    1. Idea
    2. ???
    3. Profit
Coding effectively is definitely one problem. And you're right that AI helps with that problem. But for startups, side-hustles, VC-pitches and the inner-workings of companies (HN crowd) coding was never the problem.

edit to add: So for people working on professional software teams, the discussion is how a hyper-increase in raw code production affects everything down stream. There are many moving parts to building stuff and selling it to people. So there's not a 1:1 line to more code = better outcome from the system level view. It's not clear, at least.

Re: If you thought code writing speed was your problem you have bigger problems

#149

Post by riskable »

nicbou wrote: post #114

I'm a solo dev. In fact I'm hardly a dev; it's just a helpful skill. Code writing speed IS a problem, because it takes valuable time away from other tasks. A bit like doing the dishes. I just set up Claude Code tonight. I still read and understand every line, but I don't need to Google things, move things around and write tests myself. I state my low-level intent and it does the grunt work. I'm not going to 10x my pr…

Great big difference though: A dishwasher is a water-saving and energy-saving technology.

Not saying LLMs are all bad, just that comparing them to dishwashers is probably not the best idea.

Re: If you thought code writing speed was your problem you have bigger problems

#150

Post by ohyoutravel »

_under_scores_ wrote: post #117
ohyoutravel wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I mean you. The person to whom you are responding is a bot. No judgment, just pointing this out in case you don’t want to waste human brain cycles.

Oh! Whats the tell out of curiosity?

This one in particular is a new account with a high volume of similarly-structured posts over an impossibly short time.

Bigger tells are the other two green accounts posting multiple top level comments in this topic that are nearly identical. Perhaps the programmer had an off by one error somewhere.

I count at least three top level posters, if not as many as five, in this topic that are LLMs.

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