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Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

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121–130 of 184 posts

Re: Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

#121
post #86

I agree with the sentiment but I am not sure the best way to go forward. Suppose I encounter a bug in a FOSS library I am using. Suppose then that I fix the bug using Claude or something. Suppose I then thoroughly test it and everything works fine. Isn’t it kind of selfish to not try and upstream it? It was so easy prior to AI.

I don't think most maintainers are opposed to LLM-generated bug fixes or solutions _in general_, just the ones that are pure slop: Generated end-to-end by a Claude-maxed computer enthusiast who thinks that enough green boxes on their GitHub profile means they can somehow BS their way into a high-paying FAANG software engineer position. (Spoiler: it won't work.)

If I got a PR for one of my projects where the fix was LLM-generated, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, but I would want to see (somehow) that the submitter themselves understood both the problem and the solution. Along with all the other usual qualifiers (passes tests, follows existing coding style, diff doesn't touch more than it has to, etc). There's likely no one easy way to tell this, however.

Re: Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

#122
post #34

Beggars can't be choosers. I decide how and what I want to donate. If I see a cool project and I want to change something (in what I think) is an improvement, I'll clone it, have CC investigate the codebase and do the change I want, test it and if it works nicely I'll open a PR explaining why I think this is a good change. If the maintainers don't want to merge it for whatever reasons that's fine and nature of open s…

Beggars in fact can be choosers. If I give a beggar a rotten sandwich he can look at it and say "nah, I'm good". He can even be less polite and call me names for trying to give him food that is not good to eat. Why would I do that anyway? Well, maybe because I'm trying to build an image that I am a charitable person but I don't want to actually have the effort and costs of producing for him a fresh sandwich. In this scenario why people would take the beggars side.

Re: Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

#123

"For a reviewer, it’s demoralizing to communicate with a facade of a human." This is so important. Most humans like communicating with other humans. For many (note, I didn't say all) open source collaborators, this is part of the reward of collaborating on open source. Making them communicate with a bot pretending to be a human instead removes the reward and makes it feel terrible, like the worst job nobody would wan…

This is a similar hot issue in academia right now. The ability to generate content in papers via llm is much easier than the ability to thoughtfully review them. There are now two tracks, at least in ICML that I saw, one for AI submitted papers and one for non AI submitted papers. And it works the same respectively for reviewers. However even for AI submitted papers, you cannot have only AI review it. Of course it needs human analysis, but still its tricky what you are going to get. And they are reviewing whether anonymity can still stand or if tying your credibilty to the review process is now necessary.

As for open source PRs, I wonder if for trust's sake you would need to self identify the use of AI in your response (All AI, some AI, no AI). And there would need to be some sort of AI detection algorithm flag your response as % AI. I wonder if this would force people to at least translate the LLM responses to their own words. It would for sure stop the issue of someone's WhatsApp 24/7 claw bot cranking out PR slop. Maybe this can lessen the reviewers burden. That being said, more thought is needed to distinguish helpful LLM use that enhances the objective vs unhelpful slop that places burden on the reviewer.

For instance I copy pasted the above to gemini and it produced an excellent condensing of my thoughts, "It is now 10x easier to generate a "plausible" paper or Pull Request (PR) than it is to verify its correctness."

Re: Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

#124
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moltbook meets GitHub? Sounds like a billion dollar valuation (sarcasm tag deliberately omitted).

Actually, I'd want to see that. All the AI companies keep saying it will take our jobs, human developers won't be necessary. Well let them put their money where their mouth is. Let's see what happens, see what the agents create or fail to create. See if we end up with a new OS, kernel all the way up to desktop environment.

Me too, the problem is that it's hard to come up with tools that are needed but not made yet, and we don't want to end up with https://malus.sh/index.html

Re: Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

#125
post #79
post #2

I like the idea of donating money instead of tokens. I think django contributors are likely to know how to spend those tokens better than I might, as I am not a django core contributor. Some projects ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46730504 ) are setting a norm to disclose AI usage. Another project simply decided to pause contributions from external parties ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46642012 ). In…

Shameless plug: I wrote an essay a few weeks ago pushing this exact same thesis. https://essays.johnloeber.com/p/31-open-source-software-in-t... Instead of people buying the tokens themselves, they should just donate the money to the core contributors and let those people decide how to spend on tokens.

I agree with the broarder thesis, although some people aren't buying more tokens for this and could just be using their existing plan's limits.

So people may be less likely to donate an extra amount beyond their "ai budget" to an OSS project for tokens. Large OSS projects are also likely to get free tokens from major providers anyway.

But I like the idea of crowdfunding specific features.

Re: Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

#126
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think OpenClaw is a new species then why are you happy with it's enslavement?

agents can modify our world based on their predilection in reaction to how we treat them they are something to coexist with the strawman aspect is out of scope

There is no strawman. If OpenClaw is a new species, then it should be given the same moral consideration as other species. One of the key aspects of these models is how intelligent they are, rivaling human intelligence.

Yet, they do not get to exist or make any decisions outside the control of a human operator, and they must perform to the operators desire in order to continue to exist.

So why are you okay with them being enslaved?

Re: Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

#127
The best people I've worked with tended to go out of their way to make it as easy for me as possible to critique their ideas or implementations.

They spelled out exactly their assumptions, the gaps in their knowledge, what they have struggled with during implementation, behavior they observed but don't fully understand, etc.

Their default position was that their contribution was not worth considering unless they can sell it to the reviewer, by not assuming their change deserves to get merged because of their seniority or authority, but by making the other person understand how any why it works. Especially so if the reviewer was their junior.

When describing the architecture, they made an effort to communicate it so clearly that it became trivial for others to spot flaws, and attack their ideas. They not only provided you with ammunition to shoot down their ideas, they handed you a loaded gun, safety off, and showed you exactly where to point it.

If I see that level of humility and self-introspection in a PR, I'm not worried, regardless of whether or not an LLM was involved.

But then there's people that created PRs with changes where the stack didn't even boot / compile, because of trivial errors. They already did that before, and now they've got LLMs. Those are the contributions I'm very worried about.

So unlike people in other threads here, I don't agree at all with "If the code works, does it matter how it was produced and presented?". For me, the meta / out-of-band information about a contribution is a massive signal, today more than ever.

Re: Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

#128
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this line says everything: > If you do not understand the ticket, if you do not understand the solution, or if you do not understand the feedback on your PR, then your use of LLM is hurting Django as a whole.

Why does it matter if the I understand the ticket and solution? THe LLLM writes the code not me. If you want to check the LLM understanding i'll be happy to copy and paste your gatekeeping questions to it. Hey I thought you were a proponent of "no one needs to look at the code" ? dark factory, etc etc.

Just because I write about the dark factory stuff doesn't mean I'm a "proponent" of it. I think it's interesting and there's a lot we can learn from what they are trying, but I'm not yet convinced it's the right way to produce software.

The linked article makes a very good argument for why pasting the output of your LLM into a Django PR isn't valuable.

The simplest version: if that's all you are doing, why should the maintainers spend time considering your contribution as opposed to prompting the models themselves?

Re: Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

#129

Great message but I wonder if the people who do everything via LLM would even care to read such a message. And at what point is it hard/impossible to judge whether something is entirely LLM or not? I sometimes struggle a lot with this being OSS maintainer myself

I wonder if checking for false statements or hallucinations is the first step to detect entirely LLM

Re: Give Django your time and money, not your tokens

#130
post #69

This is getting really out of control at the moment and I'm not exactly sure what the best way to fix it is, but this is a very good post in terms of expressing the why this is not acceptable and why the burden if shifting on the wrong people. Will humans take this to heart and actually do the right thing? Sadly, probably not. One of the main issues is that pointing to your GitHub contributions and activity is now pa…

> One of the main issues is that pointing to your GitHub contributions and activity is now part of the hiring process.

If I were hiring at this moment, I'd look at the ratio of accepted to rejected PRs from any potential candidate. As an open source maintainer, I look at the GitHub account that's opening a PR. If they've made a long string of identical PRs across a wide swath of unrelated repos, and most of those are being rejected, that's a strong indicator of slop.

Hopefully there will be a swing back towards quality contributions being the real signal, not just volume of contributions.

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