Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The American Healthcare Conundrum

github.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 690 posts

Re: The American Healthcare Conundrum

#61

Post by djoldman »

timtim51251 wrote: post #7

Lots of people are saying nonsense here. The actual reason commercial insurers pay more is that's the only way to can make more profits. Because of Obamacare requiring 80% of the money they collect to be spent, the insurance companies just get to keep 20%. So insurance companies spend more so they can collect higher premiums. That's how they make more money. Several doctor friends have told me this as well.

This isn't the whole story. There's a lot of "legal" self-dealing going on where insurance companies essentially own providers and then pay the providers which allows the insurance companies to circumvent the medical loss ratios.

More here:

https://healthcareuncovered.substack.com/p/self-dealing-ille...

Re: The American Healthcare Conundrum

#62

Post by rexroad »

phil21 wrote: post #20
timtim51251 wrote: post #7

Lots of people are saying nonsense here. The actual reason commercial insurers pay more is that's the only way to can make more profits. Because of Obamacare requiring 80% of the money they collect to be spent, the insurance companies just get to keep 20%. So insurance companies spend more so they can collect higher premiums. That's how they make more money. Several doctor friends have told me this as well.

In a vacuum sure. But insurance companies operate the only part of the healthcare system that is moderately competitive. In the end employers are the ones largely paying and they are professional negotiators enough to put price pressure on insurance plans. 20% of $0 is $0. As such, as light of an incentive it is - it’s the only party in the entire system that is incentivized in any way whatsoever to keep costs down.…

You're right that there's no single bad actor, and that's exactly the framing of this series. Each issue isolates one mechanism with one savings estimate. The 254% figure is RAND's. What I added is the HCRIS cost-to-charge analysis across 3,193 hospitals showing the variance by ownership type.

The surprise was nonprofit hospitals: median markup of 3.96x actual operating costs, versus 2.39x for for-profit and 1.87x for government hospitals. That's hard to square with the narrative that nonprofits deserve their tax exemptions ($28-37B/year) because they serve charitable purposes.

On the self-funded employer point — you're correct that self-funded plans have more negotiating latitude, and thousands of them already use reference pricing (capping hospital payments at a percentage of Medicare). That's actually the policy fix this analysis proposes. Montana Medicaid implemented it and saved $47.8M. The question is why it isn't the default.

Re: The American Healthcare Conundrum

#64

Post by etchalon »

timtim51251 wrote: post #7

Lots of people are saying nonsense here. The actual reason commercial insurers pay more is that's the only way to can make more profits. Because of Obamacare requiring 80% of the money they collect to be spent, the insurance companies just get to keep 20%. So insurance companies spend more so they can collect higher premiums. That's how they make more money. Several doctor friends have told me this as well.

Several doctor friends told me your doctor friends aren't real.

Re: The American Healthcare Conundrum

#65

Post by hermanzegerman »

graemep wrote: post #60

> The US spends ~$14,570 per person on healthcare. Japan spends ~$5,790 and has the highest life expectancy in the OECD. That gap is roughly $3 trillion per year. The difference in life expectancy will be influenced by multiple factors and may have more to do with diet and lifestyle than with healthcare. Japan also spends less per capita than the UK, France or Germany. The US spends a lot more than any of those so th…

We in Germany copied a lot of the stupid stuff from America (including the stupid billing system for inpatient stays), so it's not that surprising that our system is also bad value for money.

PS: Outcomes here are not worse than those of rich people in the US, because I know some idiots will claim this to cope

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...

Re: The American Healthcare Conundrum

#66

Post by refulgentis »

hardtke wrote: post #53
notfried wrote: post #8

I like this. It'd be great to see such a table of the key issues with proposed solutions, to highlight how the waste isn't an insurmountable impossibility to solve. Having said that, federal lobbying by the healthcare industry was $750 million in 2024 [1], and this is the blocker that needs to be addressed first to be able to enact change. [1] https://www.managedhealthcareexecutive.com/view/health-syste...

We rarely discuss the primary source of health care cost differences in the United States -- US doctors get paid a lot more than elsewhere. I haven't seen a credible proposal to address that. Most of the salary difference can be blamed on deliberately created shortages of doctors in many specialities. Not enough medical school slots (horror stories among my kid's friends of not getting accepted) and then also shortag…

Idk why but I feel the need to add an empty “co-sign” comment. It is 100% this and I have so many stories from friends who are doctors and nurses that back up every detail.

One note: the doctors won’t agree or want to hear this, as they too are human, but listen to how they talk about nurses. Hit me once I had both a CRNA (advanced nursing degree in anesthesiology) and an anesthesiologist friend

Edit: glad I did add an empty cosign, right after replying, the parent is now downvoted to gray. And gets it much, much, better info than any other comment, and I read all of them. Last thing I’ll throw out to back it up is, check into who decides how many seats there are at med schools. Can’t remember the exact name but it’s basically the doctors union / professional organization. AMA?

Re: The American Healthcare Conundrum

#67

Post by tacticalturtle »

hardtke wrote: post #53
notfried wrote: post #8

I like this. It'd be great to see such a table of the key issues with proposed solutions, to highlight how the waste isn't an insurmountable impossibility to solve. Having said that, federal lobbying by the healthcare industry was $750 million in 2024 [1], and this is the blocker that needs to be addressed first to be able to enact change. [1] https://www.managedhealthcareexecutive.com/view/health-syste...

We rarely discuss the primary source of health care cost differences in the United States -- US doctors get paid a lot more than elsewhere. I haven't seen a credible proposal to address that. Most of the salary difference can be blamed on deliberately created shortages of doctors in many specialities. Not enough medical school slots (horror stories among my kid's friends of not getting accepted) and then also shortag…

I really don’t think doctor salaries are the primary difference when they make up less than 10 % of health care costs:

> However, new research by Stanford health economist Maria Polyakova and colleagues — using unique data on physician income — shows that physicians’ personal earnings account for only 8.6 percent of national health-care spending

https://siepr.stanford.edu/news/just-how-much-do-physicians-...

Re: The American Healthcare Conundrum

#68

Post by franktankbank »

phil21 wrote: post #20
timtim51251 wrote: post #7

Lots of people are saying nonsense here. The actual reason commercial insurers pay more is that's the only way to can make more profits. Because of Obamacare requiring 80% of the money they collect to be spent, the insurance companies just get to keep 20%. So insurance companies spend more so they can collect higher premiums. That's how they make more money. Several doctor friends have told me this as well.

In a vacuum sure. But insurance companies operate the only part of the healthcare system that is moderately competitive. In the end employers are the ones largely paying and they are professional negotiators enough to put price pressure on insurance plans. 20% of $0 is $0. As such, as light of an incentive it is - it’s the only party in the entire system that is incentivized in any way whatsoever to keep costs down.…

More like kickbacks to the dipshit in HR who signs the dotted-line.

Re: The American Healthcare Conundrum

#69

Post by rexroad »

levocardia wrote: post #18
paulddraper wrote: post #4

This is a believable result. Meta-analysis is 141-259% [1]. Three reasons: 1. Medicare has quasi-monopolistic negotiation power that private insurers can only dream of -- Medicare spend two-thirds of all the private insurers combined. That's why private insurers would combine in a heartbeat if the FTC allowed it. 2. Moreover, that Medicare volume is concentrated in a specific segment of the market. If many providers…

Also, commercial insurers are essentially cross-subsidizing Medicare: the higher revenue from commercial insurers is partly why Medicare can be paid less. Similar dynamics exist with drug prices: the high US cost is a cross-subsidy to other countries. Maybe this is good (someone's got to fund R&D), maybe this is bad (it's a net wealth transfer to the elderly), but it's an important part of the dynamic either way.

The cross-subsidy argument is one hospitals use to justify high commercial rates: "Medicare underpays, so we have to make it up on commercial." The HCRIS data lets you test this. If cross-subsidization were the full story, you'd expect cost-to-charge ratios to be tight — hospitals would charge commercial just enough to cover the Medicare shortfall. Instead, the median markup is 2.6x across all hospitals, and 3.96x for nonprofits. That's not cross-subsidy. That's pricing power in a concentrated market.

Re: The American Healthcare Conundrum

#70

Post by digi59404 »

phil21 wrote: post #20
timtim51251 wrote: post #7

Lots of people are saying nonsense here. The actual reason commercial insurers pay more is that's the only way to can make more profits. Because of Obamacare requiring 80% of the money they collect to be spent, the insurance companies just get to keep 20%. So insurance companies spend more so they can collect higher premiums. That's how they make more money. Several doctor friends have told me this as well.

In a vacuum sure. But insurance companies operate the only part of the healthcare system that is moderately competitive. In the end employers are the ones largely paying and they are professional negotiators enough to put price pressure on insurance plans. 20% of $0 is $0. As such, as light of an incentive it is - it’s the only party in the entire system that is incentivized in any way whatsoever to keep costs down.…

What OP said is true. You’re forgetting that health insurers are just one organization in the corporate chart. They often work to own the providers as well to funnel money to parent corporations.

So if United is the insurer they’re owned by an umbrella, that umbrella takes 20% or less. However United makes special deals and steers people to providers owned by the Umbrella. So that the Umbrella makes more money as well. This is true for medicine as well. For example Cigna requires all maintenance medication be purchased through express scripts as a means to retain or increase profit.

United has a history of also squeezing organizations by forcing them into pre-payment review when they’re high volume. This causes the providers to basically not have no revenue for months on end until it gets sorted. Then they might get a chunk or settle out of court. Often they go bankrupt and are purchased by the umbrella.

In terms of Medicare/Medicaid another catch-22 is that insurance handles the claims for providers. The insurance can recode claims and pocket the difference without telling the provider. It’s on the provider to catch it.

There is a tremendous amount of dark money, shadow games, hidden corporate structures, Wyoming and NM LLCs with Anonymous owners, etc.

Insurance as a whole tries to own the entire feedback loop for healthcare. They don’t like you going out of their feedback loop.

Post reply on HN