Of course, the MBAs pushing for growth missed on physics class that it is impossible for everyone to growth expontentially.
> impossible for everyone to growth expontentially.
Where is the population growing exponentially?
Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn
61–70 of 245 posts
Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
These arguments all fell like they're warning that we'll all be drowning in horse manure and running out of guano in 5 years. Likening economic growth to the growth of organisms in a petri dish is the wrong model entirely. We are all the time finding new uses for things and moving on from old ways of powering society. It on;y looks static if you're quite myopic.
Meanwhile we observe a 75% collapse of wildlife world wide since 1970, but yeah sure we are constantly finding new "things"! Amazing!
Most of this is in developing nations where people are expanding agriculture into wild areas rather than implementing innovations in more intensive agriculture. Developed nations are currently increasing forest cover and wild land. You're demonstrating the EXACT myopia I'm referring to.
Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn
#63I don't have any deep background in econ, but do we not need to switch from talking about GDP to talking about a version of Net Domestic Product where "net" includes: - changes to the value of natural and ecosystem resources (e.g. if I clear a forest to sell timber, we must acknowledge some lost value for the forest) - amount of economic transactions in service of mitigating problems created by externalities from oth…
Also this isn't only a gap about environmental issues. If you pay X for child daycare and work but only make X+taxes, and have a dumb pointless job, GDP says the economy is at least 2X+tax larger than if you took care of your own child during the day (bc your employer paid you and you paid your daycare). This seems dumb at an accounting level, even before we consider that you probably get a greater emotional benefit…
But they’re not measuring nor optimizing for the contentedness of you, or your kids.
They’re measuring money generated for shareholders, they’re measuring tax base.
Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn
#64May not be a problem if the trend continues that wealthy/high-consumption cultures choose to stop reproducing?
In the abstract we have to pick one crisis or the other, but the real world is messy. Global warming has momentum, and so does population despite what look like reliable projections of population decline in many places. In other words we could see negative impacts from both without them canceling each other out.
Demographic momentum means population continues to increase for a while after the total fertility rate drops well below replacement. Once the decline starts the momentum works in the opposite direction: decline continues for a while even if TFR is somehow increased again.
Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn
#65Countries that fail to compete trying to hold back the winners.
Who are the winners if we are going to "produce" ourselves into abyss?
Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
Also this isn't only a gap about environmental issues. If you pay X for child daycare and work but only make X+taxes, and have a dumb pointless job, GDP says the economy is at least 2X+tax larger than if you took care of your own child during the day (bc your employer paid you and you paid your daycare). This seems dumb at an accounting level, even before we consider that you probably get a greater emotional benefit…
But they’re not measuring nor optimizing for the contentedness of you, or your kids. They’re measuring money generated for shareholders, they’re measuring tax base.
I think the point they were trying to make is that they are measuring and optimizing for the wrong thing
Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn
#67Trantor still managed to have imperial gardens though, so how bad could it really be? /s
Trantor was described as having, what, 40 billion people?
This would allow most of the planet to still be wild, if people lived at population densities of current cities.
Asimov was a city boy who famously didn't like to travel. He didn't have experience with how unoccupied most of the world is.
Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
These arguments all fell like they're warning that we'll all be drowning in horse manure and running out of guano in 5 years. Likening economic growth to the growth of organisms in a petri dish is the wrong model entirely. We are all the time finding new uses for things and moving on from old ways of powering society. It on;y looks static if you're quite myopic.
> We are all the time finding new uses for things and moving on from old ways of powering society. Can you provide some examples? With the "all the time" phrasing, something recent would be preferred. All I see for a couple decades is new schemes to further enrich those with money at the expense of those without money.
Sure, we're rapidly expanding battery technology alongside solar and wind which changes the calculus with respect to the externalities of power generation. Many industrial processes have moved from coal to LNG which is safer/cleaner to produce and creates less air pollution and emits less CO2 when burned.
As I mentioned in another comment, agriculture has become incredibly efficient in the broader west and China. We grow far more on far less land and this has involved all sort of innovations. New biotech promises even more gains. We're on the cusp of cereal crops being engineered to fix nitrogen which would dramatically reduce fertilizer use.
Mass timber is another cool example.
Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
But they’re not measuring nor optimizing for the contentedness of you, or your kids. They’re measuring money generated for shareholders, they’re measuring tax base.
I think the point they were trying to make is that they are measuring and optimizing for the wrong thing
I am agreeing with that point,
and providing speculation why it’s unlikely to change.
Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn
#70Is this a joke? Growth is caused by consumer demand, and answering to it in the best way possible. It's not an 'obsession' of the capitalist businesses or countries. Capitalism is simply an algorithm which tries to allocate resources such that a growing demand can be answered, and that everyone has their needs satisfied.
There are plenty of people who don't have enough food, enough housing, or other basic needs. The only way to solve this is growth. People in developing countries upgrading their lifestyle to modern standards is a huge source of growth. Are you saying that all these people should stop their obsession with growth?
Edit:
I've got to add that it's true that economic policies of countries are 'obsessed' with GDP growth. It's a problem of central planning, not markets.
Inflationary monetary policies are specifically designed to accelerate consumption, and as a consequence a lot of economic activity is allocated serving this fake demand, resulting in cancerous growth, i.e. consumption for the sake of consumption, while in real terms people are poorer than before.