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Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies

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Re: Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies

#31

Post by throawayonthe »

> From V-Dem, we use two measures of democratic quality: the Regimes of the World (RoW) classification and the Liberal Democracy Index. The RoW (Lührmann et al., 2018) is a categorical measure distinguishing closed autocracies (no multiparty elections), electoral autocracies (multiparty elections that are not free and fair), electoral democracies (free elections but limited liberal protections), and liberal democracies (free elections with strong liberal protections).

by "democracy" they of course mean liberalism

Re: Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies

#32

Post by ses1984 »

lm28469 wrote: post #21
retep_kram wrote: post #2

It looks like a tautology to me. Like: "Corruption erodes social trust in places where social trust exist and is key for the political system."

I think culture and education play much bigger roles than anything else, all the sources I find show Germany and France having similar level of corruption (on top of being geographically and economically close) but completely different level of "social trust". China's pretty corrupt politically but the social trust is quite high, the highest outside of northern europe as far as I can tell https://ourworldindata.org/c…

We are probably meant to assume ceteris paribus and only vary the dimension of corruption.

I think you’re right that culture plays a key role. For example if small bribes are customary, that doesn’t erode trust, that’s just the way things are.

Re: Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies

#33

Post by ses1984 »

rob74 wrote: post #30
lm28469 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think culture and education play much bigger roles than anything else, all the sources I find show Germany and France having similar level of corruption (on top of being geographically and economically close) but completely different level of "social trust". China's pretty corrupt politically but the social trust is quite high, the highest outside of northern europe as far as I can tell https://ourworldindata.org/c…

> China's pretty corrupt politically but the social trust is quite high, the highest outside of northern europe as far as I can tell There are a few reasons for that that I can imagine: - China is one of very few autocracies that has managed to significantly improve the standard of living of most of its population. - The public trials and (sometimes) executions of allegedly corrupt individuals might help improve the…

>The same harsh penalties mentioned above might influence people to declare a higher level of social trust than they actually have.

This 100%.

Political imprisonment and reeducation camps are antithetical to any definition of a high trust society that I would subscribe to.

Re: Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies

#34

Post by tw04 »

cucumber3732842 wrote: post #22
dzink wrote: post #19

You have to understand how gears shift from there. Trust is essential for business transactions and specifically for long term investments. You can’t make massive leaps in technology or medicine or many other areas without trust (a lot of money on a leap means if you don’t trust the other side or the government to keep conditions stable, you won’t see a return). Now if you are in a high trust society, you may have a…

Are we living in the same reality? Look at how business works in the rich west works. Everything is formalized with contracts, risk is portioned out and offloaded to every party under the sun. You bring in people with licenses and accreditation, 3rd party consultants, etc, etc. All of this work and expense is incurred so that if things go wrong then the parties all have precisely defined ways in which they can (expen…

Your response just proves his point. All of that paperwork, all of those contracts- that assumes you can trust the government to fairly enforce the law.

In a society where corruption rules, you have no reason to spend time and money on any of that because you know you’re one bribe away from it all being kindling for your next bonfire.

So yes, in areas with high corruption they don’t bother. They either just set aside some cash to pay off whatever official they need to if things go sideways, or they hire the local judge’s son to an empty position of power so that they can win anything that goes to “court”. That’s not a sign of high trust, that’s an acknowledgment there’s no point in bothering.

Re: Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies

#35

Post by PaulHoule »

lm28469 wrote: post #21
retep_kram wrote: post #2

It looks like a tautology to me. Like: "Corruption erodes social trust in places where social trust exist and is key for the political system."

I think culture and education play much bigger roles than anything else, all the sources I find show Germany and France having similar level of corruption (on top of being geographically and economically close) but completely different level of "social trust". China's pretty corrupt politically but the social trust is quite high, the highest outside of northern europe as far as I can tell https://ourworldindata.org/c…

The corruption numbers break down into: (1) They didn't ask the question in China, (2) They asked somebody if they paid a bribe or if taking a bribe is every justifiable, and (3) "Expert estimates of the extent to which the executive, legislative, judiciary, and bureaucracy engage in bribery and theft, and the making and implementation of laws are susceptible to corruption"

For (2) China doesn't look too different from the U.S., for (3) experts think it has gotten much worse since the time of Mao but I'd say China is on the honest side of the "global South".

Note that lay perceptions of corruption are widespread in the US

https://yougov.com/en-us/articles/51398-most-americans-see-c...

https://news.gallup.com/poll/185759/widespread-government-co...

https://www.occrp.org/en/news/survey-reveals-corruption-as-t...

though unlike India I think very few Americans have paid a bribe to a cop. See also

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2026/03/05/in-25-countr...

Re: Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies

#36

Post by butILoveLife »

Id be curious if people in a democracy would answer No to the question "Is it normal to look through your SO phone?" more than in autocracies.

Western idealism has taught us perfection and that corruption/cheating/lying/fraud/etc... is not the standard.

Re: Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies

#37

Post by scythmic_waves »

retep_kram wrote: post #2

It looks like a tautology to me. Like: "Corruption erodes social trust in places where social trust exist and is key for the political system."

It's not a tautology because it's not guaranteed. There are plenty of plausible sounding claims that fail to be true. That's why science is needed: to provide _empirical_ evidence for/against a claim.

Re: Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies

#38

Post by eru »

cucumber3732842 wrote: post #22
dzink wrote: post #19

You have to understand how gears shift from there. Trust is essential for business transactions and specifically for long term investments. You can’t make massive leaps in technology or medicine or many other areas without trust (a lot of money on a leap means if you don’t trust the other side or the government to keep conditions stable, you won’t see a return). Now if you are in a high trust society, you may have a…

Are we living in the same reality? Look at how business works in the rich west works. Everything is formalized with contracts, risk is portioned out and offloaded to every party under the sun. You bring in people with licenses and accreditation, 3rd party consultants, etc, etc. All of this work and expense is incurred so that if things go wrong then the parties all have precisely defined ways in which they can (expen…

Western Europe is a low trust environment compared to the beacons in (cultural) East Asia, like Singapore. I can leave my kid with an iPad in her hand here without fear of it being nicked, like in London.

But business wise, western Europe is still relatively high trust. I suggest you read more about this.

Re: Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies

#39

Post by angiolillo »

cucumber3732842 wrote: post #22
dzink wrote: post #19

You have to understand how gears shift from there. Trust is essential for business transactions and specifically for long term investments. You can’t make massive leaps in technology or medicine or many other areas without trust (a lot of money on a leap means if you don’t trust the other side or the government to keep conditions stable, you won’t see a return). Now if you are in a high trust society, you may have a…

Are we living in the same reality? Look at how business works in the rich west works. Everything is formalized with contracts, risk is portioned out and offloaded to every party under the sun. You bring in people with licenses and accreditation, 3rd party consultants, etc, etc. All of this work and expense is incurred so that if things go wrong then the parties all have precisely defined ways in which they can (expen…

The framing of "low trust" vs "high trust" is useful but another important distinction when conducting business in different jurisdictions is whether *institutions* or *counterparties* are more trustworthy.

If institutions such as courts are trustworthy (in that they will impartially adjudicate contracts and help you enforce their terms) then you are able to work with a wider spectrum of counterparties who you do not yet trust. You just have to document and hedge against the risk via contracts and insurance, as you point out.

If institutions such as courts are absent, corrupt, or otherwise captured then you must ensure that you only interact with counterparties that you can trust or have direct leverage over. Perhaps ones with which you share personal or reputational connections.

Re: Corruption erodes social trust more in democracies than in autocracies

#40

Post by eru »

lm28469 wrote: post #21
retep_kram wrote: post #2

It looks like a tautology to me. Like: "Corruption erodes social trust in places where social trust exist and is key for the political system."

I think culture and education play much bigger roles than anything else, all the sources I find show Germany and France having similar level of corruption (on top of being geographically and economically close) but completely different level of "social trust". China's pretty corrupt politically but the social trust is quite high, the highest outside of northern europe as far as I can tell https://ourworldindata.org/c…

> the highest outside of northern europe as far as I can tell

What are you comparing with? I don't think PR China has more social trust than Singapore or Japan or Korea?

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