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AI didn't simplify software engineering: It just made bad engineering easier

robenglander.com

101–110 of 119 posts

Re: AI didn't simplify software engineering: It just made bad engineering easier

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unclear what point you're even trying to make, other than that AI has been helpful to you. But surely you understand that if you don't know what a unit test is you're probably not in a position to comment on the value of unit testing. > Snobby programmers would never even return an email offering money for their services. Why the would they? I don't respond to the vast majority of emails, and I'm already employe…

Helpful to me and millions of others. Soon to be billions even. You are employed because somewhere in the pipeline there are paying customers. They don't care about unit tests, they care about having their problems solved. Beware of AI.

The end user of a bridge doesn’t care about most things the engineer who designed it does. They care that the bridge spans the gap and is safe to use. The company building the bridge and the group financing its construction care about a few more things like how much it will cost to provide those things to the end user, how long it will last. The engineer cares about a few more things: will the tolerances in the materials used in the struts account for the shearing forces of the most extreme weather in the region?

So it is with software.

You might not need a blueprint if you’re building a shed in your back yard. This is the kind of software that and user might write or script themselves. If it’s kind of off nobody is going to get hurt.

In many cities in North America you can’t construct a dwelling with plumbing connections to a sewer and a permanent foundation without an engineer. And you need an engineer and a blueprint to get the license to go ahead with your construction.

Because if you get it wrong you can make people in the dwelling sick and damage the surrounding environment and infrastructure.

Software-wise this is where you’re handling other people’s sensitive data. You probably have more than one component that needs to interact with others. If you get it wrong people could lose money, assets could get damaged, etc.

This is where I think the software industry needs to figure out liability and maybe professionalize a bit. Right now the liability is with the company and the deterrents are basically no worse than a speeding ticket in most cases. It’s more profitable to keep speeding and pay off the ticket than to prevent harm from throwing out sloppy code and seeing what sticks.

Then if you are building a sky scraper… well yeah, that’s the large scale stuff you build at big tech.

There are different degrees of software with different requirements. While not engineers by professional accreditation, in practice I would say most software developers are doing engineering… or trying.

What I agree with in the article is that AI tools make bad engineering easier. That is for people building houses and skyscrapers who should be thinking about blueprints: they are working under assumptions that the AI is “smart” and will build sky-scrapers for them. They’re not thinking about the things they ought to be and less about things that will pass on to the customers: cost and a product that isn’t fit for use.

A bridge that falls down if you drive too fast over it isn’t a useful bridge even though it looks like a bridge.

Re: AI didn't simplify software engineering: It just made bad engineering easier

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a grudge, but there needs to be some balance. Software devs are incredibly well paid compared to other professionals. It is their responsibility to use their talents to benefit themselves, and if they are out-competed then they should work with something else. They don't have a right to a fantastic career. All other workers have had to go through this when their fields became more automated and efficient…

> If they're too precious to adapt or take a different job, then starve. Yeah I mean I think everyone is with you except for the "then starve", this is just weirdly combative and lacking in empathy, I find it totally strange. > Me and hundreds of thousands of other organizations who have software needs that were under served by the market. And... you blame software developers for that? You blame software devs for a l…

Lacking in empathy could also be said of the software devs who think that software devs are a significant customer group in the economy, when they are a tiny percentage of the work force. Asking yourself "who is going to purchase the products?" when software development is being automated is quite silly. Why didn't they ask that question when thousands of other professions suffered the same?

> And... you blame software developers for that?

I don't blame them. They had more lucrative ventures to tend to. Now that under served market segments can be served with the help of AI, then they shouldn't complain.

You mention making web sites, but this is probably the only field in computing where the market has a lot of offerings to customers from all segments. If I need a website I don't have to use Wix, there is an endless supply of freelancers or small, medium, or big studios that offer their services. The same cannot be said of other bespoke software needs.

BTW, you are hearing a lot more hostility in my comments than is actually there.

> We like to work on interesting projects... is that surprising? Is that snobbery? I don't get it.

Yes it is snobbery. Other skilled professionals generally do not have that option, they have to do the boring stuff as well. And if you only like to work on interesting projects, then why are people complaining that AI is taking their jobs?

Regarding hobbyist / open source, I mean that when software devs aren't working on big enterprise style projects as a job, they tend to work on enterprise style projects as open source, or just play with hobbyist projects. Servicing smaller customers with bespoke software seems to be considered a little bit beneath the programmer dignity.

And it's not my personal experience talking. Consider how many studios are offering bespoke software for small businesses, compared to how many studios are offering websites for small businesses. There's a huge gap, that is probably going to be filled in some way pretty soon.

Re: AI didn't simplify software engineering: It just made bad engineering easier

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they're too precious to adapt or take a different job, then starve. Yeah I mean I think everyone is with you except for the "then starve", this is just weirdly combative and lacking in empathy, I find it totally strange. > Me and hundreds of thousands of other organizations who have software needs that were under served by the market. And... you blame software developers for that? You blame software devs for a l…

Lacking in empathy could also be said of the software devs who think that software devs are a significant customer group in the economy, when they are a tiny percentage of the work force. Asking yourself "who is going to purchase the products?" when software development is being automated is quite silly. Why didn't they ask that question when thousands of other professions suffered the same? > And... you blame softwa…

> Lacking in empathy could also be said of the software devs who think that software devs are a significant customer group in the economy, when they are a tiny percentage of the work force.

This is silly equivocation. I'm telling you that your statement lacks empathy, and you're making vague, unclear gestures to an entire field.

Anyway, reading your post it's clear that you have a rather pathetic grudge because software devs weren't interesting in working with you and now you get to grin gleefully as you see AI take away jobs. You obviously have zero insight into software development as a practice, nor how software devs think - this is glaringly obvious by your detraction that software devs give software away for free as somehow snobbery because they wouldn't work on whatever project you clearly hold a grudge over. Further, your comments from start to finish demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of what the job actually entails.

> BTW, you are hearing a lot more hostility in my comments than is actually there.

Maybe so! I can't tell you what you actually think, but it comes off as really pathetic, so maybe reread your post and consider why I'm hearing it.

Best of luck in your ventures.

Re: AI didn't simplify software engineering: It just made bad engineering easier

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The connection to Amdahl's law is totally on point. If you're just using LLMs as a faster way to get _your_ ideas down, but still want to ensure you validate and understand the output, you won't get the mythical 10x improvement so many seem to claim they're getting. And if you do want that 10x speedup, you have to forego the validation and understanding.

I do agree with you, but don't underestimate the projects where you can actually apply this 10x. For example, I wanted to get some analytics out of my database. What would have been a full weekend project was now done in an hour. So for such things there is a huge speed boost. But once software becomes bigger and more complex, the LLM starts messing up, and the expert has to come in. That basicaly means your months p…

I think there will also be a lot of work in how to modularize month long projects into plugin sized pieces.

Re: AI didn't simplify software engineering: It just made bad engineering easier

#105

I’m an AI skeptic and in no sense is it taking my peers job. But it does save me time. I can do research much better than Google, explore a code base, spit out helper functions, and review for obvious mistakes.

So what do you mean with being a sceptic? I thought you meant you weren't convinced of it's usefulness, and therefore don't use it. But you do seem to use it, so what is it you're sceptible about?

Re: AI didn't simplify software engineering: It just made bad engineering easier

#106
Finally, an AI article i think i fully agree with (or at least mostly).

In my hobby work, AI is indispensable. It's really good at showing me how to solve problems that have been solved, but haven't been applied to my specific scenario. I just ported a WiFi driver for a little RISC-V dev board i bought back in 2023, entirely using Gemini.

Obviously there's lots of training data on compiling such drivers for new systems, and i could fill in the gaps (exact memory addresses, newer kennel function signatures, etc) but it really did write the code, something my JS-dev brain would've taken too long to figure out to be useful.

At the same time, at work, it ignores basic project conventions, hallucinates APIs, writes nonsense documentation; it's very useful, but it my no means "does my job"

There's an obvious disconnect: execs think it can do the anything, engineers think it can do a lot, but not what the execs think

Re: AI didn't simplify software engineering: It just made bad engineering easier

#107
post #21

I disagree with the premise. It made all engineering easier. Bad and good. I believe vibe coding has always existed. I've known people at every company who add copious null checks rather than understanding things and fixing them properly. All we see now is copious null checks at scale. On the other hand, I've also seen excellent engineering amplified and features built by experts in days which would have taken weeks.

Well, it's made bad engineering massively easier and good engineering a little easier. So much so that many people who were doing good engineering before have opted to move to doing three times as much bad engineering instead of doing 10% more good engineering.

This is precisely my experience at work. Mid-levels who used to produce good code are now producing LLM code.

Re: AI didn't simplify software engineering: It just made bad engineering easier

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do agree with you, but don't underestimate the projects where you can actually apply this 10x. For example, I wanted to get some analytics out of my database. What would have been a full weekend project was now done in an hour. So for such things there is a huge speed boost. But once software becomes bigger and more complex, the LLM starts messing up, and the expert has to come in. That basicaly means your months p…

I think there will also be a lot of work in how to modularize month long projects into plugin sized pieces.

Yes, definitely. I also don't think every project is able to create a plugin platform. Sometimes you just have a lot of interconnected components, where they kind of influence each other.

What I was trying to say is that in future developments, as a developer, one of the extra questions on your mind should be: can we turn this into a platform with separate plugins? Because you know those plugins can be written fast, cheap, and don't require top notch engineering work.

But I think I get what you are saying: what you gain in plugin simplicity, you pay in effort to design the platform to support them.

I guess it will depend from project to project, and so the typical "it depends" applies :).

Re: AI didn't simplify software engineering: It just made bad engineering easier

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lacking in empathy could also be said of the software devs who think that software devs are a significant customer group in the economy, when they are a tiny percentage of the work force. Asking yourself "who is going to purchase the products?" when software development is being automated is quite silly. Why didn't they ask that question when thousands of other professions suffered the same? > And... you blame softwa…

> Lacking in empathy could also be said of the software devs who think that software devs are a significant customer group in the economy, when they are a tiny percentage of the work force. This is silly equivocation. I'm telling you that your statement lacks empathy, and you're making vague, unclear gestures to an entire field. Anyway, reading your post it's clear that you have a rather pathetic grudge because softw…

You aren't thinking clearly enough to understand what I'm saying, becuase you can't let go of my perhaps harsh comment.

But come on, people here are saying "who is going to buy products if we don't have jobs", as if they never gave a thought to other people who had their jobs automated away. That's a lack of empathy.

In many cases software is exactly what took away other people's jobs. Secretary used to be a common job, as well as "computer", which was a human making calculations.

But since you are a hacker and have to be always right, you have just descended into personal attacks now.

Re: AI didn't simplify software engineering: It just made bad engineering easier

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lacking in empathy could also be said of the software devs who think that software devs are a significant customer group in the economy, when they are a tiny percentage of the work force. This is silly equivocation. I'm telling you that your statement lacks empathy, and you're making vague, unclear gestures to an entire field. Anyway, reading your post it's clear that you have a rather pathetic grudge because softw…

You aren't thinking clearly enough to understand what I'm saying, becuase you can't let go of my perhaps harsh comment. But come on, people here are saying "who is going to buy products if we don't have jobs", as if they never gave a thought to other people who had their jobs automated away. That's a lack of empathy. In many cases software is exactly what took away other people's jobs. Secretary used to be a common j…

> But since you are a hacker and have to be always right, you have just descended into personal attacks now.

The irony of this statement is so silly. Once again, you clearly have hang ups.

I've explained everything I have to say.

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