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Nanny state discovers Linux, demands it check kids' IDs before booting

theregister.com

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Re: Nanny state discovers Linux, demands it check kids' IDs before booting

#161

Post by mayama »

BobbyJo wrote: post #105

This is all just unenforceable theater. Are they going to jail or fine open source developers if they create an OS that doesn't support the requirements? Are they going to do customs checks for OSs? Firewalls? These kinds of laws just seem like unworkable messes to fool the tech ignorant into thinking they care about kids. Application side I get, there is an entity there running the application, that can be fined or…

They will force locked bootloaders like in the phones on to laptops. UEFI is already there, just force it to boot keys of OS which verify age.

Re: Nanny state discovers Linux, demands it check kids' IDs before booting

#162

Post by wongarsu »

browningstreet wrote: post #45
wongarsu wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The California law only stipulates that there's an "accessible interface at account setup" to set the birthday or age at account setup, and an interface to query the age bracket. Plus the crap for "application stores" I don't think it's a very well thought-out law. But realistically this will end up as setting some env variable for your docker containers to assure them that you are 99 years old. And yes, maybe transm…

Gavin said he's open to amending the law. I hope someone's taking him up on that..

Yeah, I think the idea of the law is fine. If you imagine "Operating System" to mean "things like Windows and iOS, or Desktop install of Fedora", "Application Store" to mean "Microsoft Store or AppStore or the like" and "Application" to mean "Word and Doom and stuff like that" then it's fine. Especially if you keep in mind that there isn't any actual verification of the age, it's simply set by whoever sets up the account

Most of the issues only arise because in the bill "operating system", "covered application store" and "application"/"developer" have very loose definitions that match lots of things where the law doesn't make sense.

Re: Nanny state discovers Linux, demands it check kids' IDs before booting

#163

Post by bee_rider »

wongarsu wrote: post #113
bigfishrunning wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily, depending on how the application is logging it just means the resolution to which you know a birth date is limited by how often the application is run. If i check my email every morning at 8am, and my email app logs my "age bucket", then it can know to a resolution of one day. If i only check my email on Monday mornings, it knows to a resolution of one week, etc...

The size of the age bracket also puts practical limitations on it. There is only one mandated bracket for everyone who's at least 18, preventing that attack on anyone who starts using your software after their 18th birthday. And if a 13 year old signs up it takes three years for you to observe the switch to the >=16,<18 bucket

> And if a 13 year old signs up it takes three years for you to observe the switch to the >=16,I think this is the big vulnerability in the scheme. This information is easy to track and log, so it is basically equivalent in the giving away the DOB of everybody who is currently under 18 (at least, everybody who uses the system as intended). In the long run that’s everybody.

We could have a discussion about whether or not it would be fine for services to know every user’s DOB, but it is clearly giving away more information than the law intended.

> There is only one mandated bracket for everyone who's at least 18, preventing that attack on anyone who starts using your software after their 18th birthday.

I don’t think that fully recognizes the size of the problem, “using your software” is fuzzy. Companies get bought, identities get correlated, ad services collect and log more information than needed. I think it is better to assume the attacker will have logs of these queries from the start date of a person’s first account.

Re: Nanny state discovers Linux, demands it check kids' IDs before booting

#164

Post by tzs »

t1234s wrote: post #51

I guess going forward if you are under 18 and want to learn programming and not be harassed by the government you have to go back to having and offline only computer and stack of o'reilly books?

How would this hinder a kid learning programming? How would it even be noticeable?

Re: Nanny state discovers Linux, demands it check kids' IDs before booting

#165

Post by hrimfaxi »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #95
hrimfaxi wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am intrigued by this. I have long thought that exposing children to optimism and "what could be" allows them to envision a world different from our own. Kind of like how once you're in capitalism it's hard to think of alternatives.

I've always found it strange how Americans like to validate their ideals using their kids as vehicles. Instead of teaching kids how to be successful in a less than ideal world, we teach them our ideal view of the world. Like teaching kids violence is never the answer, instead of sometimes a situation does call for violence. We raise kids for a world that doesn't exist. It's up to the kid/adult to unlearn those obviou…

How did you arrive at this being uniquely American? I would say it's Western society more generally.

Re: Nanny state discovers Linux, demands it check kids' IDs before booting

#166

Post by LtWorf »

alephnerd wrote: post #34
whywhywhywhy wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Who is paying FOSS devs who will be implementing this? honestly if they let it be known they'd do it for payment the same person who's paying off the politicians to push this through would probably pay them too.

A large number of maintainers for larger OSS projects are employed by tech companies directly.

Not that large, no.

Re: Nanny state discovers Linux, demands it check kids' IDs before booting

#167

Post by hypeatei »

shadowgovt wrote: post #131
iamnothere wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re arguing against freedom of computing, itself an extension of freedom of thought and freedom of speech. These laws are an attempt to regulate not just what you do with your computer, but how it operates . This is fundamentally an attack on rights and freedoms, and if it goes unchallenged then it will expand into other areas. Maybe that doesn’t move you; it seems like you don’t care much for personal liberties.…

You have made some fascinating assumptions about the person you are addressing. I recommend refraining from that in the future and instead asking why a fellow American takes a position other than the one you hold. Two guys built a website to try and help people curb their undesired sexual proclivities and because they were bad at security, their users' personal information (including their own logs of their sexual pr…

> But we should be a lot more serious about taking more than zero steps

No, we shouldn't. There is no inherent need for government regulations in every part of our lives, let alone a computer. Sorry to be flippant, but this idea that everyone needs to have a "serious conversation" about something is laughable and inevitably leads to mountains of government legislation with unintended consequences.

Thanks, but no thanks. We should resist all of this bullshit and try not to become Europe 2.0 where it's illegal to offend people with your speech because some idiot thought that'd be "reasonable" regulation.

Re: Nanny state discovers Linux, demands it check kids' IDs before booting

#170

Post by tzs »

Arch485 wrote: post #87
curt15 wrote: post #84

The overwhelming majority of programmers likely cut their teeth on computers as kids. Any attempt to restrict computer access to 18+ will only handicap American programmers in the job market.

Or lots of parents will put their ID into their kid's computer so that they have full access.

What ID? Most of these laws don't require any ID.

They require that when the administrator of the computer sets up an account for a user the admin can enter an age or birthdate for the user, and that the OS provides an interface so that apps that user runs can ask based on that admin provided information what age bracket the user is in ([0,13), [13,16), [16,18), [18,∞)).

Apps that need to make age based decisions can use that information.

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