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Malus – Clean Room as a Service

malus.sh

221–230 of 566 posts

Re: Malus – Clean Room as a Service

#221

This is extremely good satire. Question is, why hasn't anyone done this for real? There's enough people with the right knowledge and who would love to destroy open source for personal gain. Is it that this kind of service would be so open to litigation that it would need a lot of money upfront? Or is someone already working on this, and we're just living out the last good days of OSS?

There's a lot of things you could do to be malicious towards other people with minimal effort, yet strangely few people do it. Virtually everyone has morals, and most people's are quite compatible with society (hence we have a society) even if small perturbations in foundational morals sometimes lead to seemingly large discrepancies in resultant actions

You need the right kind of person, in the right life circumstances, to have this idea before it happens for real. By having publicity, it becomes vastly more likely that it finds someone who meets the former two criteria, like how it works with other crime (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_crime). So thanks, Malus :P

Re: Malus – Clean Room as a Service

#222
post #75

An interesting aspect of this, especially their blog post ( https://malus.sh/blog.html ), is that it acknowledges a strain in our legal system I've been observing for decades, but don't think the legal system or people in general have dealt with, which is that generally costs matter . A favorite example of mine is speed limits. There is a difference between "putting up a sign that says 55 mph and walking away", "putt…

The issue with strictly enforcing the speed limit on roads is that sometimes, people must speed. They must break the law. Wife giving birth, rushing a wounded person to the ER, speeding to avoid a collision, etc. If we wanted to strictly enforce speed limits, we would put governors on engines. However, doing that would cause a lot of harm to normal people. That's why we don't do it. Stop and think about what it means…

> sometimes, people must speed. They must break the law. Wife giving birth, rushing a wounded person to the ER, speeding to avoid a collision

I would argue that only the last one is a valid reason because it's the only one where it's clear that not speeding leads to direct worse consequences.

Speed limits don't exist just to annoy people. Speeding increases the risk of accident and especially the consequences of an accident.

I don't trust people to drive well in a stressful situation, so why would it be a good idea to let them increase the risk by speeding.

The worst part is that it's not even all that likely that the time saved by speeding ends up mattering.

Re: Malus – Clean Room as a Service

#223
post #201
post #181

I feel like this is related to these issues (with somebody attempting this approach for real): https://github.com/chardet/chardet/issues/327 https://github.com/chardet/chardet/issues/331

That's worth its own submission and discussion.

It has been submitted last week, happy reading:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47259177

Re: Malus – Clean Room as a Service

#224
> Our proprietary AI systems have never seen the original source code.

For this to be plausible satire, they need to show how they've trained their models to code, without mit, apache, bsd or GPL/agpl code being in the training set...

Re: Malus – Clean Room as a Service

#225
I have a feeling this will lead to huge interoperability and ecosystem fragmentation issues.

Well, there is one way... You can have a government steal all open source code and force its citizens to only use proprietary hardware and proprietary code, all government sanctioned btw. I wonder if we're headed this way.

Re: Malus – Clean Room as a Service

#228
From their front page:

>*Full legal indemnification: *Through our offshore subsidiary in a jurisdiction that doesn't recognize software copyright*

Heh, ok. So, the thinking is:

1. You contract them.

2. The actual Copyright infringement is done by an __offshore__ company.

3. If you get sued by the original software devs, you seek indemnification from the offshore subsidiary.

4. That offshore subsidiary is in a country without copyright laws or with weak laws so "you're good!"

...

5. Profit.

This is a ridiculous legal defense since this "one-way-street" legal process will almost certainly result in you being sued first... the company actually using the infringing code.

The indemnification is likely worthless since the offshore company won't have any assets anyway and will dissolve once there's a lawsuit and legal process is established.

The "guarantee" is absurd: Their "MalusCorp Guarantee" promises a refund and moving headquarters to international waters if infringement is found. This is not a real legal remedy and is written to sound like a joke, which is telling about their seriousness...

This whole "clean room as a service" concept is a legal gray area at best. In practice, it's extremely difficult to prove tha ta "clean room" process was truly clean, especially with AI models that have been trained on vast amounts of existing code (including the very projects they are "recreating").

The indemnification is a marketing gimmick to make a legally dangerous service seem safe. It creates a facade of protection while ensuring that any financial liability stays with you, the customer who wants to avoid infringement .

Re: Malus – Clean Room as a Service

#229
post #228

From their front page: >*Full legal indemnification: *Through our offshore subsidiary in a jurisdiction that doesn't recognize software copyright* Heh, ok. So, the thinking is: 1. You contract them. 2. The actual Copyright infringement is done by an __offshore__ company. 3. If you get sued by the original software devs, you seek indemnification from the offshore subsidiary. 4. That offshore subsidiary is in a country…

whoosh

Re: Malus – Clean Room as a Service

#230
post #75

An interesting aspect of this, especially their blog post ( https://malus.sh/blog.html ), is that it acknowledges a strain in our legal system I've been observing for decades, but don't think the legal system or people in general have dealt with, which is that generally costs matter . A favorite example of mine is speed limits. There is a difference between "putting up a sign that says 55 mph and walking away", "putt…

We should welcome more precise law enforcement. Imperfect enforcement is too easy for law enforcement officers to turn into selective enforcement. By choosing who to go after, law enforcement gets the unearned power to change the law however they want, enforcing unwritten rules of their choosing. Having law enforcement make the laws is bad. The big caveat, though, is that when enforcement becomes more accurate, the r…

The problem with precise law enforcement is that the legal system is incredibly complex. There's a tagline that ‘everybody's a criminal’; I don't know if that's necessarily true but I do definitely believe that a large number of ‘innocent’ people are criminals (by the letter of the law) without their knowledge. Because we usually only bother to prosecute crimes if some obvious harm has been done this doesn't cause a lot of damage in practice (though it can be abused), but if you start enforcing the letter of every law precisely it suddenly becomes the obligation of every citizen to know every law — in a de facto way, rather than just the de jure way we currently have as a consequence of ‘ignorance of the law is no excuse’. So an increase of precision in law enforcement must be preceded by a drastic simplification of the law itself — not a bad thing by any means, but also not an easy (or, perhaps, possible) task.
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