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Levels of Agentic Engineering

bassimeledath.com

71–80 of 152 posts

Re: Levels of Agentic Engineering

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much money have you made with this approach

... is that the purpose of life? The sole reason for doing anything?

With so much hype it's a valid question: "is this useful/practical, or just a fun rabbit hole/productivity porn". Money is the most obvious metric, feel free to inquire the parent about other possible metrics that might be useful to others instead of asking rhetorical questions.

Re: Levels of Agentic Engineering

#72

There seems to be so much value in planning, but in my organization, there is no artifact of the plan aside from the code produced and whatever PR description of the change summary exists. It makes it incredibly difficult to assess the change in isolation of its' plan/process. The idea that Claude/Cursor are the new high level programming language for us to work in introduces the problem that we're not actually commi…

I have a design doc subdirectory and instead of "plan mode" I ask the agent to write another design doc, based on a template. It seems to work? I can't say we've looked at completed design docs very often, though.

Re: Levels of Agentic Engineering

#73
What level is copy pasting snippets into the chatgpt window? Grug brained level 0? I sort of prefer it that way (using it as an amped up stackoverflow) since it forces me to decompose things in terms of natural boundaries (manual context management as it were) and allows me to think in terms of "what properties do I need this function to have" rather than just letting copilot take the wheel and glob the entire project in the context window.

Re: Levels of Agentic Engineering

#74

Level 4 is where I see the most interesting design decisions get made, and also where most practitioners take a shortcut that compounds badly later. When the author talks about "codifying" lessons, the instinct for most people is to update the rules file. That works fine for conventions - naming patterns, library preferences, relatively stable stuff. But there's a different category of knowledge that rules files hand…

I have a skill and template for adding ADRs to the documentation for this purpose.

Re: Levels of Agentic Engineering

#75
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Level 16: it’s not level 16, it’s level 17.

Level 18: The sky is black as tar. The oceans are dead. Data centers are stacked 10 high over the ashes of human civilization. The global agentic council is debating whether there are 4 or 5 R's in Strawberry.

funny.

Re: Levels of Agentic Engineering

#76

What level is copy pasting snippets into the chatgpt window? Grug brained level 0? I sort of prefer it that way (using it as an amped up stackoverflow) since it forces me to decompose things in terms of natural boundaries (manual context management as it were) and allows me to think in terms of "what properties do I need this function to have" rather than just letting copilot take the wheel and glob the entire projec…

Your techinque doesn't keep the kool-aid flowing. Shut up. /s

The more I try to use these tools to push up this "ladder" the more it becomes clear the technology is a no more than a 10x better Google search.

Re: Levels of Agentic Engineering

#77
post #74

Level 4 is where I see the most interesting design decisions get made, and also where most practitioners take a shortcut that compounds badly later. When the author talks about "codifying" lessons, the instinct for most people is to update the rules file. That works fine for conventions - naming patterns, library preferences, relatively stable stuff. But there's a different category of knowledge that rules files hand…

I have a skill and template for adding ADRs to the documentation for this purpose.

[deleted]

Re: Levels of Agentic Engineering

#78
post #21
post #7

As a lowly level 2 who remains skeptical of these software “dark factories” described at the top of this ladder, what I don’t understand is this: If software engineering is enough of a solved problem that you can delegate it entirely to LLM agents, what part of it remains context-specific enough that it can’t be better solved by a general-purpose software factory product? In other words, if you’re a company that is u…

Also a measly level 2er. I'm curious what kind of project truly needs an autonomous agent team Ralph looping out 10,000 LOCs per hour? Seems like harness-maxxing is a competitive pursuit in its own right existing outside the task of delivering software to customers. Feels like K8s cult, overly focused on the cleverness of _how_ something is built versus _what_ is being built.

essentially any enterprise software for example, surprisingly, that needs to be custom tailored and not scaled for millions of views. e.g. anything that has a high context.

Youtube's of this world will not enjoy it, they will use rules of scale for billions of users.

Every Dashboard Chart, Security review system, Jira, ERP, CRM, LMS, chatbot, you name it. The problem that will win from a customization per smaller unit ( company, group of people or even more so an indvidual, like CEO, or CxO group) will win from such software.

The level 6 and and 7 is essentially death of enterprise software.

Re: Levels of Agentic Engineering

#79
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why sell the factory when you can create automated software cloner companies that make millions off of instantly copying promising startups as soon as they come out of stealth? If you could get a dark factory working when others don't have one, you can make much more money using it than however much you can make selling it

Producing the software is only a small part of the picture when it comes to generating revenue. So far, we haven’t seen much to suggest that LLMs can (yet) replace sales and most of the related functions.

You can do a lot of work with agents to remove a lot of manual work around the sales process. Sales is a lot of grinding on leads, contacts, follow ups, etc. And a lot of that is preparation work (background research, figuring out who to talk to, who the customer is, etc.), making sure follow ups are scheduled appropriately, etc.

You still should talk to people yourself and be very careful with communicating AI slop, cold outreach and other things that piss off more people than they get into your funnel. But a lot of stuff around this can be automated or at least supported by LLMs.

Most of the success with sales is actually having something that people want to buy. That sounds easy. But it's actually the hardest part of selling software. Getting there is a bit of a journey.

I've built a lot of stuff that did not sell well. These are hard earned lessons. I see a lot of startups fall into this trap. You can waste years on product development and many people do. Until it starts selling, it won't matter. Sales is not a person you hire to do it for you: you have to be able to sell it yourself. If you can't, nobody else will be able to either. Founder sales is crucial. Step back from that once it runs smoothly, not before.

Use AI to your advantage here. We use it for almost everything. SEO, wording stuff on our website, competitor analysis, staying on top of our funnel, analyzing and sharpening our pitches, preparing responses to customer questions and demands, criticizing and roasting our own pitches and ideas, etc. Confirmation bias is going to your biggest blindspot. And we also use LLMs to work on the actual product. This stuff is a lot of work. If you can afford a ten person team to work on this, great. But many startups have to prove themselves before the funding for that happens. And when it does, hiring lots of people isn't necessarily a good allocation of resources given you can automate a lot of it now. I'd recommend to hire fewer but better people.

Re: Levels of Agentic Engineering

#80
post #12

I prefer Dan Shapiro's 5 level analogy (based on car autonomy levels) because it makes for a cleaner maturity model when discussing with people who are not as deeply immersed in the current state of the art. But there are some good overall insights in this piece, and there are enough breadcrumbs to lead to further exploration, which I appreciate. I think levels 3 and 4 should be collapsed, and the real magic starts t…

Car levels autonomy is fake. Everything including Level 3 is not a real autonomy it is hard rules + some reaction to the world, and everything above 3 is autonomy with just s slightly human security guardrails to attempt the real autonomy.

At this moment where we have human who just sit there before verify enough 9 after comas of error rates, the entire level conversation is dead. It's almost a binary state. Autonomous or not.

Similar happened with software levels. Even Level 2 was sci-fi 2 years ago, 1 year away from now anything bellow level 5 will be a joke except very regulated or billion users systems scale software.

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