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Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong

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Re: Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong

#151
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people are suspicious or dismissive of AGI, HTM, etc because...well...there doesn't seem to be anything really to it. People who know AI I've talked to in the know about HTM don't know anything about it or have mildly negative things to say. Ditto for AGI. It's a contentious topic and people just get defensive. Many of those links in grandparent post were from or about opencog. I can make long blog posts abou…

I'm totally fine with empiricism! Your post here is helpful. It's just rude and not helpful to respond to a post like that with nothing more than "no".

It's pretty rude to post religious gumph as though it's fact too... I'd argue the response was reasonable.

Re: Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong

#152
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know in the soft sciences everyone is a quack because fundamentally they don't practice - wait for it - science. Science stops false connections by correctly attributing cause to its respective effect. Social sciences do not. For all intents and purposes, the vast majority of social science is either unreproducible, vague, mixing correlation with causation, uses dependent variables, poorly reasoned, statistical q…

> Science stops false connections by correctly attributing cause to its respective effect. So was Aristotle a quack as well? I ask because, he was pre-science, and pretty much laid the foundation for what became the scientific-method. (i.e empiricism). Perhaps before you dismiss large bodies of knowledge you should look up the history of science, and see that it has flaws in and of itself...

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Re: Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong

#153
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your definition of real science is something that has good prediction/application potential, that's a rather unusual definition of science. Are mathematicians, theoretical physicists all talk as well ?

String theorists are bullshitty yes. Mathematicians aren't - you can prove their correctness over abstract planes and use them to for example run a hedge fund or a software company into trillions of revenue when making testable predictions in macro reality. Theoretical physicists that use mathematics to make testable predictions are too. You can use them to also make electric engines, statistical extractors and accur…

Better let Andrew Wiles know his 8 years spent on Fermat's Last Theorem was just a bullshit waste of time, because he couldn't use it to run a hedge fund, or software company...

It can only be 'proved' in the 'contrived' world of pure mathematics... what bullshit!

Re: Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong

#154
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

String theorists are bullshitty yes. Mathematicians aren't - you can prove their correctness over abstract planes and use them to for example run a hedge fund or a software company into trillions of revenue when making testable predictions in macro reality. Theoretical physicists that use mathematics to make testable predictions are too. You can use them to also make electric engines, statistical extractors and accur…

Better let Andrew Wiles know his 8 years spent on Fermat's Last Theorem was just a bullshit waste of time, because he couldn't use it to run a hedge fund, or software company... It can only be 'proved' in the 'contrived' world of pure mathematics... what bullshit!

I said mathematicians weren't bullshit.

Re: Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong

#155
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better let Andrew Wiles know his 8 years spent on Fermat's Last Theorem was just a bullshit waste of time, because he couldn't use it to run a hedge fund, or software company... It can only be 'proved' in the 'contrived' world of pure mathematics... what bullshit!

I said mathematicians weren't bullshit.

No, you provided a qualification of why they weren't... I gave you an example of a mathematician who broke your qualification, and logically should fall into your definition of a 'quack'.

The idea being, that you'd have to back pedal, and change your qualification. Which I could then use to apply to other fields, that you deem as 'quackery', and thus undo the foundation of your argument.

Instead, you just denied the reality of what you said... I didn't count on that. Well done.

Re: Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong

#156
post #60
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chomsky revolutionized linguistics in the 1960s. Compiler theory incorporates a huge amount of his work. Calling his contributions negligible or detrimental is like saying Freud's contributions were the same.

CogSci PhD student here, I'm no fan of Chomsky but I'd still say his contributions were a lot more useful than Freud's. Freudian Psychology is mostly abandoned by practitioners at this point; the Chomsky hierarchy is still canon in CS.

the Chomsky hierarchy is still canon in CS.

Though you have to wonder how much of that is a lack of interest in research. PCRE has been shown to not fit his hierarchy, they are more than regular but less than context-free.

Re: Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong

#157

Chomsky is right up there with Minsky in being part of the problem. His ideas about language being part of the genome are fanciful nonsense. Skinner produce reams of reproducible empirical observations of behavior which are, today, critical to the evaluation of the performance of AIs. Chomsky has produced interesting theories, but mostly derailed linguistics on the basis of the argument 'language is complicated, some…

If linguistics isn't part of the genome, why can't you teach a dog to talk?

Re: Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chomsky's expertise is in linguistics and political analysis. Stephen Pinker's The Language Instinct is a good, readable introduction to some of Chomsky's work (and the wider field to which he is pivotal.) Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent is probably his classic work of political analysis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky_bibliography He's no quack.

You know in the soft sciences everyone is a quack because fundamentally they don't practice - wait for it - science. Science stops false connections by correctly attributing cause to its respective effect. Social sciences do not. For all intents and purposes, the vast majority of social science is either unreproducible, vague, mixing correlation with causation, uses dependent variables, poorly reasoned, statistical q…

> social science is either unreproducible, vague, mixing correlation with causation, uses dependent variables, poorly reasoned, statistical quirks, pushed by agendas or fundamentally flawed...

Dr. Freud would have had a good deal to say about your apparent fixation with bovine feces...

Seriously though, your comments are playing fast and lose with a range of fields that you’re conflating and dismissing. Not all social sciences are “soft” and many have empirically-based real world applications that shape your (and everyone’s really) everyday lives.

Re: Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong

#159
post #97
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the top level, I think this captures it. If, like Chomsky, you value having a model of the underlying cognition process rather than a set of black-box predictors for aspects of that problem (e.g., various corpus-driven translators), then you might be really annoyed that the black-box people are so satisfied with their results.

The Church was angry that the sun didn't revolve around the Earth. We don't get to pick the prettiest models. Right makes right.

I object to your glibness. Probably both methods (first-principles cognitive modeling vs. high-degree-of-freedom black box learning) will prove informative, just in different ways.

Or in your terms, we may not get to pick the prettiest models, but we owe it to ourselves to explore the space of models to see if we can find the structure in it.

The engineer in me is pleased by the undoubted success the data-driven learning culture has had on problems of real importance. But this work is highly empirical, with a tendency to point solutions, and someone is likely to come in later on and generalize these methods (e.g., why do some families of black-box predictor or features outperform others for language learning). There's room for both approaches.

Norvig's reply to Chomsky's original remark contains a reference to Leo Breiman's well-informed remarks on this question (http://projecteuclid.org/DPubS?service=UI&version=1.0&#3...).

Breiman, as author of basic books on measure theory as well as on classification trees, was able to walk both sides of this line ("make a first-principles model" vs. "use lots of data"). He spent considerable energy over the years trying to introduce the data-intensive approach to conventional statistics. For instance, he was one of the handful of bona fide statisticians who would attend and contribute to neural net and machine learning conferences. Probably this strategy is more productive than Chomsky's grumpy-old-man warnings (or sagacious warnings, depending on how you look at it).

Re: Noam Chomsky on Where Artificial Intelligence Went Wrong

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you mean talker. Walker would be things that actually did stuff - you know like search, translation, locomotion or prediction. That's a lot of words and a lot of books in a bunch of the soft sciences (linguistics and politics) which are highly susceptible to class A bullshit. All of that doesn't mean anything - no different from Richard Dawkins who irritates me in a similar fashion - I ask once again - where'…

As somebody who used to do a bit of NLP work in the dim and distant past I can testify that Chomsky's work on context free grammars, etc. (certainly used to anyway - not been poking at it for about fifteen years now) got applied a fuck of a lot. The model probably doesn't have a great deal of relation to what happens inside folks heads - but it was stupidly useful for making computers do stuff though. Might be better…

Amen.

And, I'm not enough of a historian of science to know, but it seems to me that the basic results Chomsky proved on Regular Languages and CFGs paved the way for the Hidden Markov Models (HMMs) that have been so effective in language understanding. Basically, the HMMs are the natural probabilistic extension of Regular Languages.

I'm not sure if Viterbi and the other developers of the basic HMM toolkit were directly influenced by Chomsky, or if state machines were just in the air. Certainly Chomsky's basic work in the late 1950s predated Viterbi's work in the 1960s.

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