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I resigned from OpenAI

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Re: I resigned from OpenAI

#171

Post by Towaway69 »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #162
Towaway69 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I'm not saying that, that's your interpretation of what I am saying. What I'm saying is what I have written, no deeper meaning. What I said is that we vote for politicians whom we are told share our morals or we assume that they do. I don't make any judgement nor prediction what happens if that happens not to be the case - either before or after the event of voting.

Ok, so just taking it literally, you're saying that morals have just these three functions: 1. Morals prevent us from driving over others. 2. Morals prevent us from being mean to others. 3. Moral makes us trust the politicians. And nothing more?

Morals are an invented cohesive for societal-sized groups of humans. As such, they can mean many things to many people or nothing to nobody.

Morals only exist as long as there are people who believe them. Once you wipe out an entire country, their morals disappear.

Re: I resigned from OpenAI

#172

Post by cloverich »

Towaway69 wrote: post #170
sethammons wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, principles are even more important in unstable times. Anyone can excuse any behavior otherwise. And everyone at OpenAI has alternatives. This isn't choosing between prostitution or drug slinging to pay for baby formula for them. It is "how early can I retire" - and the answer should be later if it crosses boundaries. The ends do not justify the means.

What’s the last principled thing you did? Drive less to save the environment? Easy to point fingers, harder to practice what you preach. I know, this isn’t about you but then again it’s not about this one person who resigned either nor the employees of openai nor about anyone else. I’ve provide an alternative PoV for why folks might not quit their jobs for their principles. Each to their own.

I agree with you on non judgement but would push back - if you'll violate your principles for a cush job, they aren't really principles you have.

Re: I resigned from OpenAI

#173

Post by Loxicon »

cloverich wrote: post #172
Towaway69 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the last principled thing you did? Drive less to save the environment? Easy to point fingers, harder to practice what you preach. I know, this isn’t about you but then again it’s not about this one person who resigned either nor the employees of openai nor about anyone else. I’ve provide an alternative PoV for why folks might not quit their jobs for their principles. Each to their own.

I agree with you on non judgement but would push back - if you'll violate your principles for a cush job, they aren't really principles you have.

Even though I strongly agree with the other person about reasons why people wouldn't leave...

I agree even strongly with what you just said: "if you'll violate your principles for a cush job, they aren't really principles you have."

The reality is, I don't think people really understand what a deeply held principle is. It's often a non-negotiable.

Re: I resigned from OpenAI

#174

Post by Towaway69 »

Loxicon wrote: post #173
cloverich wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you on non judgement but would push back - if you'll violate your principles for a cush job, they aren't really principles you have.

Even though I strongly agree with the other person about reasons why people wouldn't leave... I agree even strongly with what you just said: "if you'll violate your principles for a cush job, they aren't really principles you have." The reality is, I don't think people really understand what a deeply held principle is. It's often a non-negotiable.

And then sometimes you have to question your principles and perhaps let them go. This can happen, for example, when children grow up and become adults. Their parents _should_ do a lot of letting go.

Perhaps folks involved with electronic devices are too used to a black & white decision world. Computer says no or computer says yes, there is no maybe. The real world of principles, morals, emotions, humans etc is filled with maybes and that can become hard to navigate for computers.

Re: I resigned from OpenAI

#175

Post by deaux »

Towaway69 wrote: post #170
sethammons wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, principles are even more important in unstable times. Anyone can excuse any behavior otherwise. And everyone at OpenAI has alternatives. This isn't choosing between prostitution or drug slinging to pay for baby formula for them. It is "how early can I retire" - and the answer should be later if it crosses boundaries. The ends do not justify the means.

What’s the last principled thing you did? Drive less to save the environment? Easy to point fingers, harder to practice what you preach. I know, this isn’t about you but then again it’s not about this one person who resigned either nor the employees of openai nor about anyone else. I’ve provide an alternative PoV for why folks might not quit their jobs for their principles. Each to their own.

> What’s the last principled thing you did?

Leaving a job for one that paid 3x less. And they weren't making automated killing machines (at least at the time, who knows now).

> Easy to point fingers, harder to practice what you preach.

Quite easy to practice what you preach, if you indeed have principles.

99% of people with families and mortgages manage to do so without OpenAI comp packages. It's a meaningless excuse, completely irrelevant.

Re: I resigned from OpenAI

#176

Post by deaux »

slopinthebag wrote: post #113
kennywinker wrote: post #16

Anybody who stays at openai is signing on to build machines that will be used to kill innocent people and control people who think that’s a bad idea.

Considering the agreement Anthropic has with Palintar, you could say the exact same about employees working at Anthropic. Edit: Google, too. Microsoft with its Israel and US Gov ties. Probably most of big tech tbh. How do you recommend we view these employees from an ethical perspective?

Anthropic has willingly left money on the table by taking a stand. They could just not have done this.

OpenAI so far has done the opposite, instead seizing the above as an opportunity.

That is a seriously meaningful difference. Their agreement with Palantir (fwiw OpenAI has been partnering with them for even longer) doesn't erase that.

Re: I resigned from OpenAI

#177

Post by insane_dreamer »

slopinthebag wrote: post #103
insane_dreamer wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree mass surveillance is fundamentally wrong, but it's reasonable for people to feel greater responsibility towards the citizens of your own country, and how they are treated by your government.

Maybe, but I still think it's an odd moral boundary to cross. You might feel as though it's fine to spy on Chinese citizens because of the relationship the US and China have, but what about Canadians or Australians or the Brits or any other NATO country? I get it might feel different, but is that really a hard moral line in the sand you refuse to crosss? Idk.

It's not so much about morals as about the power that the governments have over the people they are spying on. I think it's wrong for the US gov to spy on Canadian citizens living outside the US. But the fact is the US gov has no power over those Canadian citizens outside the US. Whereas the US gov has a great deal of authority over US citizens, or foreign nationals living on US soil, and therefore the information gathered through mass surveillance becomes a much more dangerous weapon.

Re: I resigned from OpenAI

#178

Post by insane_dreamer »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #111
insane_dreamer wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. But what people don't realize is this sort of thing happens in China too, it's just never reported or heard about, other than some whispers here and there, because of such tight control over the media, the internet, and public discourse. In the US, as much as the fascists are trying to take over, at least you can still protest and make your voice heard.

Source?

Me. I lived and worked there for a number of years. When you talk to the local people in confidence you find out about this stuff, and you sometimes catch glimpses of it before it's scrubbed from local social media. There's a very high level of control.

Re: I resigned from OpenAI

#179

Post by kelseyfrog »

insane_dreamer wrote: post #178
kelseyfrog wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source?

Me. I lived and worked there for a number of years. When you talk to the local people in confidence you find out about this stuff, and you sometimes catch glimpses of it before it's scrubbed from local social media. There's a very high level of control.

How can I, as a Westerner, verify this?

Re: I resigned from OpenAI

#180

Post by kelseyfrog »

Towaway69 wrote: post #171
kelseyfrog wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so just taking it literally, you're saying that morals have just these three functions: 1. Morals prevent us from driving over others. 2. Morals prevent us from being mean to others. 3. Moral makes us trust the politicians. And nothing more?

Morals are an invented cohesive for societal-sized groups of humans. As such, they can mean many things to many people or nothing to nobody. Morals only exist as long as there are people who believe them. Once you wipe out an entire country, their morals disappear.

Thanks for your response, but uninterperatible perspectives are useless to me. They definitionally cannot be applied. I'm glad it works for you though.
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