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LLMs work best when the user defines their acceptance criteria first

blog.katanaquant.com

341–350 of 460 posts

Re: LLMs work best when the user defines their acceptance criteria first

#341
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unless you tell it in painstaking detail what to do and what to avoid, and never ask it to do a bigger job at a time than a single function or very small class. This is hyperbolic, but the general sentiment is accurate enough, at least for now. I've noticed a bimodal distribution of quality when using these tools. The people who approach the LLM from the lens of a combo architect & PM, do all the leg work, set up t…

I agree with your first paragraph but not the second one. In many cases it's easier for me to directly write the code that satisfies the unwritten acceptance criteria I have in my head than to write those criteria down in English, have an LLM turn them into code, and then have to carefully review that code to see if I forgot some detail that changes everything.

This is the point I'm raising. I agree with you, but what I'm saying is I think the skillset you describe is the next on the chopping block.

The acquaintances of mine who are absolutely *killing* it with these tools are very experienced, technically minded, product managers. They have an intimate knowledge of how to develop business requirements and how to convert them into high level technical specifications. They have enough technical knowledge to understand when someone is bullshitting them, and what the search space for the problem should be. Historically these people would lead teams of engineers to develop for them, and now they're sitting down and having LLMs crank out what they want in an afternoon. They no longer need engineers at all.

My contention is that people with that sort of skillset will have an advantage due to their experience with skills like finding product fit, identifying user needs, and defining business requirements.

Of course, the people I'm talking about were already killing it in the old paradigm too. I'll admit it's a bit of a unicorn skillset I'm describing.

Re: LLMs work best when the user defines their acceptance criteria first

#342
post #215
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s some practical tips: Start small. Figure out what it (whatever tool you’re using) can do reliably at a quality level you’re comfortable with. Try other tools. There are tons. If it doesn’t get it right with the first prompt, iterate. Refine. Keep at it until you get there. When you have seen some pattern work, do that a bunch. It won’t always work. Write rules / prompts / skills to try to get it to avoid makin…

I’m not a SWE by trade so I could care less about your last comment. But again this is all… vague. I’m personally not convinced at all. I’ll be hiring for a large project soon, so I’ll see for myself what benefits (well I care about net benefits) these tools are providing in the workplace.

If it wasn’t clear, I don’t have any desire to convince anybody of anything. You don’t believe the future is here yet? Good luck holding on to that position. Not my problem. I was taking time to try to help somebody who sounded genuinely curious and seeking help. That I’m happy to do.

Re: LLMs work best when the user defines their acceptance criteria first

#343
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a shame of bulk of that training data is likely 2010s blogspam that was poor quality to begin with.

But isn't that a reflection of reality? If you've made a significant investment in human capital, you're even more likely to protect it now and prevent posting valuable stuff on the web.

No?

Re: LLMs work best when the user defines their acceptance criteria first

#344

LLMs have no idea what "correct" means. Anything they happen to get "correct" is the result of probability applied to their large training database. Being wrong will always be not only possible but also likely any time you ask for something that is not well represented in it's training data. The user has no way to know if this is the case so they are basically flying blind and hoping for the best. Relying on an LLM f…

This is easily proven incorrect. Just go to ChatGPT and say something incorrect and ask it to verify. Why do people still believe this type of thing?

I did this yesterday and it was happy to provide me with an incorrect explanation. Not just that, but incorrect thermodynamic data supporting its claims, despite readily available published values to the contrary.

Re: LLMs work best when the user defines their acceptance criteria first

#345
post #36

Their default solution is to keep digging. It has a compounding effect of generating more and more code. If they implement something with a not-so-great approach, they'll keep adding workarounds or redundant code every time they run into limitations later. If you tell them the code is slow, they'll try to add optimized fast paths (more code), specialized routines (more code), custom data structures (even more code).…

have you tired adding to your agents file: "Prefer solutions that reduce lines of code over adding lines of code"?

Re: LLMs work best when the user defines their acceptance criteria first

#346
I think there is one problem with defining acceptance criteria first: sometimes you don't know ahead of time what those criteria are. You need to poke around first to figure out what's possible and what matters. And sometimes the criteria are subjective, abstract, and cannot be formally specified.

Of course, this problem is more general than just improving the output of LLM coding tools

Re: LLMs work best when the user defines their acceptance criteria first

#347
post #36

Their default solution is to keep digging. It has a compounding effect of generating more and more code. If they implement something with a not-so-great approach, they'll keep adding workarounds or redundant code every time they run into limitations later. If you tell them the code is slow, they'll try to add optimized fast paths (more code), specialized routines (more code), custom data structures (even more code).…

This is why I'm confused when people say it isn't ready to replace most of the programmer workforce.

I love that you’re getting straightforward replies to this absolutely sick burn. The blade is so sharp that some people aren’t even feeling it.

Re: LLMs work best when the user defines their acceptance criteria first

#350
post #346

I think there is one problem with defining acceptance criteria first: sometimes you don't know ahead of time what those criteria are. You need to poke around first to figure out what's possible and what matters. And sometimes the criteria are subjective, abstract, and cannot be formally specified. Of course, this problem is more general than just improving the output of LLM coding tools

Yeah it’s extremely helpful to clarify your thoughts before starting work with LLM agents.

I find Claude Code style plan mode to be a bit restrictive for me personally, but I’ve found that creating a plan doc and then collaboratively iterating on it with an LLM to be helpful here.

I don’t really find it much different than the scoping I’d need to do before handing off some work to a more junior engineer.

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