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Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

blog.getbootstrap.com

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Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#131

Post by papsosouid »

numbsafari wrote: post #130
papsosouid wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In your previous posts you keep mentioning "designers", plural Yeah, one at a time. I've been doing it for 16 years, I have worked with dozens of designers over that time. I don't have some sort of stable of dozens of designers to choose from or anything. >Or would you maybe look for a solid, easily customized solution that is built around design and coding best practices and that is tested by an active community? B…

> Given that the answer is so simple, it is amazing how many people just wanted to fight about bootstrap for no reason. You may want to review your original posting and the follow ups that mention your tone. You say that Grids are unnecessary and bad web design. Given that that is pretty much the opposite of what most practicing graphic designers think is the case, I think it'd be helpful if you could follow up with…

>Given that that is pretty much the opposite of what most practicing graphic designers think is the case

Sorry, I assumed HN of all places wasn't stuck in 1996. What do graphic designers have to do with anything? We're talking about web design. What web design experts think is relevant. What is good for laying out a newspaper or magazine is not necessarily what is best for delivering web content.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#132

Post by jiggy2011 »

papsosouid wrote: post #128
jiggy2011 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, that's the problem. Putting useful information in places where software has no way to understand it. You aren't putting "useful information" in the classes, you are putting presentation related information in there, if you are displaying the content non-visually it is irrelevant and can be safely ignored. Writing semantic HTML is nice for bots and browsers, but there is nothing stopping you from doing this whi…

>You aren't putting "useful information" in the classes, you are putting presentation related information in there, if you are displaying the content non-visually it is irrelevant and can be safely ignored. "This is navigation" is not just presentation, it is real, meaningful information. >Writing semantic HTML is nice for bots and browsers, but there is nothing stopping you from doing this whilst using bootstrap or…

Navigation is not something that is done via CSS. You provide navigation information inside the HTML itself, via Link Title.

Here is one of the sample bootstrap pages: http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/examples/hero.html

If you disable CSS in your browser you can still view the page and it is still perfectly functional and should work fine with a decent screenreader.

I'm hugely confused by what you mean by "proper markup", bootstrap does not do markup itself, you create the markup and apply bootstrap's CSS classes to make it look a certain way.

Could you provide a link to a page that you would use as an example of how it should be "done right"?

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#133

Post by papsosouid »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #132
papsosouid wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You aren't putting "useful information" in the classes, you are putting presentation related information in there, if you are displaying the content non-visually it is irrelevant and can be safely ignored. "This is navigation" is not just presentation, it is real, meaningful information. >Writing semantic HTML is nice for bots and browsers, but there is nothing stopping you from doing this whilst using bootstrap or…

Navigation is not something that is done via CSS. You provide navigation information inside the HTML itself, via Link Title . Here is one of the sample bootstrap pages: http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/examples/hero.html If you disable CSS in your browser you can still view the page and it is still perfectly functional and should work fine with a decent screenreader. I'm hugely confused by what you mean by "proper…

Go back and read the posts you've replied to, I gave an example that was exactly this case: navigation.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#134

Post by jiggy2011 »

papsosouid wrote: post #133
jiggy2011 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Navigation is not something that is done via CSS. You provide navigation information inside the HTML itself, via Link Title . Here is one of the sample bootstrap pages: http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/examples/hero.html If you disable CSS in your browser you can still view the page and it is still perfectly functional and should work fine with a decent screenreader. I'm hugely confused by what you mean by "proper…

Go back and read the posts you've replied to, I gave an example that was exactly this case: navigation.

I'm really confused, Navigation is a case of what, and what does that have to do with bootstrap or grid based layout?

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#135

Post by chc »

papsosouid wrote: post #80
egonschiele wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Grids are fundamentally the exact opposite of good design. As a former designer, I cannot overstress how stupid this sounds. It's the equivalent of a designer walking up to a bunch of programmers and saying "what's the big deal with functions?" Some things are opinion, and some things are just wrong. This is the latter. Here's the longer response: Grids are fundamental to good design. Have you ever wondered why som…

Show me a respected design authority who advocates grids then. "STUPID STUPID STUPID" is not an argument. The fact is, grids tie content to presentation, and are entirely unnecessary. The fact that you think grids is the reason some websites look right and others look wrong is astoundingly ignorant.

Jeffrey Zeldman? Andy Clarke? Are they not respected enough?

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#136

Post by crucialfelix »

papsosouid wrote: post #114
lelandbatey wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't use a cop out like this. I don't think that writing someone off is very helpful to the discussion, and it's made worse when you don't explain yourself. To respond to papsosouid: I'll be very honest, I have little experience with most of the skills that others on HN commonly have (lots of code experience, tinkering with projects, etc) so I can only speak to what I think about BootStrap. For me, BootStrap…

>Looking at Wikipedia[0], a framework is a set of generic functions/tools that can be changed by the user to fit their needs. Yeah, that's the definition I was going on too. It doesn't seem like it describes bootstrap to me any more than it describes every stylesheet ever made. The nature of CSS is that you can override previously defined styles. When I see "CSS framework" my expectation was something like an actual…

The framework is written in less. The css is just the rendered version of the less framework. You can configure variables to choose colors, curvatures, font base heights etc. the math performed in less scales elements and padding to the base height. There are a lot if edge cases and browser issues that are noticed and fixed by the larger community. You can also break the framework apart easily and only include certain parts by includes in the master style sheet. I'm personally using the sass fork And I have the js and CSS pared down to reduce the overall size, customize navbars etc.

It's definitely a framework.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#137

Post by numbsafari »

papsosouid wrote: post #131
numbsafari wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given that the answer is so simple, it is amazing how many people just wanted to fight about bootstrap for no reason. You may want to review your original posting and the follow ups that mention your tone. You say that Grids are unnecessary and bad web design. Given that that is pretty much the opposite of what most practicing graphic designers think is the case, I think it'd be helpful if you could follow up with…

>Given that that is pretty much the opposite of what most practicing graphic designers think is the case Sorry, I assumed HN of all places wasn't stuck in 1996. What do graphic designers have to do with anything? We're talking about web design. What web design experts think is relevant. What is good for laying out a newspaper or magazine is not necessarily what is best for delivering web content.

So, please, provide some examples. It's much more productive.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#138

Post by [deleted] »

papsosouid wrote: post #113
mixmastamyk wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read your diatribe here and am underwhelmed. However, I was underwhelmed when investigating bootstrap too. Separation of content and presentation sounds good, but a concrete example would be much more convincing. (I do understand the general idea, so pls don't explain it.) I think what I am hearing is that css styles should be applied to tags rather than classes, but am not sure. I suppose your time would be bet…

>I think what I am hearing is that css styles should be applied to tags rather than classes, but am not sure. As much as possible, yes. Here's a good example of what I mean, although he makes the mistake of taking it to the other extreme ("you should never use a class for anything ever!"): http://coding.smashingmagazine.com/2012/06/19/classes-where-... >Do it right, put it on github, give it five years, and people wi…

[deleted]

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#139

Post by papsosouid »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #134
papsosouid wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go back and read the posts you've replied to, I gave an example that was exactly this case: navigation.

I'm really confused, Navigation is a case of what, and what does that have to do with bootstrap or grid based layout?

>Go back and read the posts you've replied to

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#140

Post by mixmastamyk »

papsosouid wrote: post #113
mixmastamyk wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read your diatribe here and am underwhelmed. However, I was underwhelmed when investigating bootstrap too. Separation of content and presentation sounds good, but a concrete example would be much more convincing. (I do understand the general idea, so pls don't explain it.) I think what I am hearing is that css styles should be applied to tags rather than classes, but am not sure. I suppose your time would be bet…

>I think what I am hearing is that css styles should be applied to tags rather than classes, but am not sure. As much as possible, yes. Here's a good example of what I mean, although he makes the mistake of taking it to the other extreme ("you should never use a class for anything ever!"): http://coding.smashingmagazine.com/2012/06/19/classes-where-... >Do it right, put it on github, give it five years, and people wi…

Read the link and liked it. Now what? What are these better CSS frameworks?
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