Don't become an engineering manager • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't become an engineering manager

#101

Post by tmp10423288442 » Tue, Mar 03, 2026, 6:08 PM UTC

madhadron wrote: post #69

pkaler wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have said, levels and titles are generally for compensation and performance reviews. Each company has their own bespoke ladder but it generally maps to: - L1: Intern with undergrad degree - L2: Intern with graduate degree - L3: Junior - L4: Intermediate - L5: Senior - L6: Staff - L7: Senior Staff - L8: Principal - L9: Distinguished - L10: Fellow Each company has their own numbers and names but it generally…

You're describing a very small number of companies that all copied each other's systems. The idea of a terminal role, for example, is pure Facebook. These do not apply in general across the industry except where managers from those small number of companies came in and shoved them in before they were fired.

I believe L5 was Google's terminal role at one point (over a decade ago) - not sure if it's changed since then.

Re: Don't become an engineering manager

#102

Post by jghn » Tue, Mar 03, 2026, 6:09 PM UTC

jjfoooo4 wrote: post #60

jghn wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They matter within a company for the reasons you cite. They mostly don't matter between companies however.

Why do you think that? Senior, staff, principle levels are pretty standard across the industry, even if some companies call them different things

They're somewhat standardized in Big Tech in that people have worked out how to map titles across these companies. But that accounts for a very small fraction of the total industry.

Re: Don't become an engineering manager

#103

Post by 80sdave » Tue, Mar 03, 2026, 6:15 PM UTC

There is also another aspect of title that needs to be considered. A part of a company I used to work for did work with the banking industry. There is the meme of everyone is a VP at a bank, but for those of us who interacted with customers, we did have VP in our title, which caused internal angst, otherwise at some institutions it was seen as a snub to be dealing with anyone below a VP in title and did actually cause customer relationship problems. So sometimes there are business justification for titles outside of employee relations.

Re: Don't become an engineering manager

#104

Post by vkou » Tue, Mar 03, 2026, 6:17 PM UTC

tmp10423288442 wrote: post #101

madhadron wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're describing a very small number of companies that all copied each other's systems. The idea of a terminal role, for example, is pure Facebook. These do not apply in general across the industry except where managers from those small number of companies came in and shoved them in before they were fired.

I believe L5 was Google's terminal role at one point (over a decade ago) - not sure if it's changed since then.

It became L4 ~5-7 years ago, but who knows these days.

Re: Don't become an engineering manager

#105

Post by democracy » Tue, Mar 03, 2026, 6:21 PM UTC

Aurornis wrote: post #63

halper wrote: post #4

I cannot be alone in feeling that titles (within "tech" in particular) are almost completely arbitrary? What constitutes a "senior", "lead", "principal" and "staff" X, respectively, has so much overlap that it really depends on the organisation. I myself have been called all of those things, but have honestly not been able to tell the difference: in some cases, I have had much more responsibility as a "senior backend…

> that it really depends on the organisation. This is entirely it. Titles should be consistently ordered within an organization, but they are not portable from one organization to another. This is a lesson I’ve had to explain over and over to people at the beginning of their careers. I’ve been asked for advice about which offer to take from people thinking about leaving 10s of thousands of dollars on the table becaus…

>> I’ve interviewed so many “Prinicpal Staff Engineers” or even “CTO” people who would barely qualify as senior engineers at an average company

Failed to design Quantum Lattice Bloom Cascade algorithm in 5 minutes?

Re: Don't become an engineering manager

#106

Post by rcarr » Tue, Mar 03, 2026, 6:22 PM UTC

pkaler wrote: post #61

halper wrote: post #4

I cannot be alone in feeling that titles (within "tech" in particular) are almost completely arbitrary? What constitutes a "senior", "lead", "principal" and "staff" X, respectively, has so much overlap that it really depends on the organisation. I myself have been called all of those things, but have honestly not been able to tell the difference: in some cases, I have had much more responsibility as a "senior backend…

As others have said, levels and titles are generally for compensation and performance reviews. Each company has their own bespoke ladder but it generally maps to: - L1: Intern with undergrad degree - L2: Intern with graduate degree - L3: Junior - L4: Intermediate - L5: Senior - L6: Staff - L7: Senior Staff - L8: Principal - L9: Distinguished - L10: Fellow Each company has their own numbers and names but it generally…

This does remind me somewhat of military command structures with L1-L5 being enlisted ranks and L6-L10 either being NCO or Commissioned depending on your view of how much gatekeeping is involved.

Re: Don't become an engineering manager

#107

Post by Swizec » Tue, Mar 03, 2026, 6:26 PM UTC

Aurornis wrote: post #63

halper wrote: post #4

I cannot be alone in feeling that titles (within "tech" in particular) are almost completely arbitrary? What constitutes a "senior", "lead", "principal" and "staff" X, respectively, has so much overlap that it really depends on the organisation. I myself have been called all of those things, but have honestly not been able to tell the difference: in some cases, I have had much more responsibility as a "senior backend…

> that it really depends on the organisation. This is entirely it. Titles should be consistently ordered within an organization, but they are not portable from one organization to another. This is a lesson I’ve had to explain over and over to people at the beginning of their careers. I’ve been asked for advice about which offer to take from people thinking about leaving 10s of thousands of dollars on the table becaus…

> When hiring, titles are basically ignored

As a hiring manager, this is completely accurate. I don't look at your title, I look at your scope. Tell me what you did, for whom, and what was the impact. That's all I care about.

We all know that Senior Principal Architect Engineer at 3-person startup is somewhere around junior to mid-level at a real company. Whereas some poor schmuck at a larger company with a title like "Senior Engineer I" probably owns and runs more impressive systems and works with more stakeholders than that 3-person startup will see in a year.

Re: Don't become an engineering manager

#108

Post by locusofself » Tue, Mar 03, 2026, 6:29 PM UTC

pkaler wrote: post #61

halper wrote: post #4

I cannot be alone in feeling that titles (within "tech" in particular) are almost completely arbitrary? What constitutes a "senior", "lead", "principal" and "staff" X, respectively, has so much overlap that it really depends on the organisation. I myself have been called all of those things, but have honestly not been able to tell the difference: in some cases, I have had much more responsibility as a "senior backend…

As others have said, levels and titles are generally for compensation and performance reviews. Each company has their own bespoke ladder but it generally maps to: - L1: Intern with undergrad degree - L2: Intern with graduate degree - L3: Junior - L4: Intermediate - L5: Senior - L6: Staff - L7: Senior Staff - L8: Principal - L9: Distinguished - L10: Fellow Each company has their own numbers and names but it generally…

At Microsoft I would map your L6 to Principal, and L7/L8 to what we call "Partner". I'm a Principal, but I'm definitely not an 8 out of 10 yet.

Re: Don't become an engineering manager

#109

Post by jjmarr » Tue, Mar 03, 2026, 6:32 PM UTC

rcarr wrote: post #106

pkaler wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have said, levels and titles are generally for compensation and performance reviews. Each company has their own bespoke ladder but it generally maps to: - L1: Intern with undergrad degree - L2: Intern with graduate degree - L3: Junior - L4: Intermediate - L5: Senior - L6: Staff - L7: Senior Staff - L8: Principal - L9: Distinguished - L10: Fellow Each company has their own numbers and names but it generally…

This does remind me somewhat of military command structures with L1-L5 being enlisted ranks and L6-L10 either being NCO or Commissioned depending on your view of how much gatekeeping is involved.

Western militaries have a parallel commissioned officer and enlisted command structure where an O1 (junior officer) is technically senior to an E9 (senior enlisted NCO) and can order them around.

The idea is that command requires a separate set of skills and that experience needs to start early to have senior officers in their 50s.

In practice, junior officers are "advised" by senior enlisted on how to order people around and not taking that advice is a bad idea.

Kind of like how companies have managers and technical tracks where a line manager ignoring a senior technical person always blows up in their face.

Re: Don't become an engineering manager

#110

Post by ceramati » Tue, Mar 03, 2026, 6:37 PM UTC

After years of being asked to be a manager I finally said yes and started on Monday this week. This article could've come out a little sooner! j/k

What tipped it for me is I spend most of my time managing agents now, why not manage some human agents too.